This topic seems to keep reappearing every time things go a bit quiet.
BRS has done incredibly well in its growth and will continue to do so subject to its expansion plans coming to fruition. Theres no doubt that EZY has been a clear winner in helping those plans, probably now accounting for over half of BRS passenger figures. Most would say that CWL, although considered, was never in with a chance of attracting Go who became EZY. Whilst BRS has lost routes and Airlines, CWL has been most unfortunate in its luck over that past 15 or so years.
Bmibaby
Had bmibaby been in a better position both financially and operationally to compete then I'm sure CWL would still be sustaining a 3 maybe even 4 aircraft base. If they were still around in 2019 their fortunes may be better but they didn't make it through the downturn and internal complications with their ownership. There were several routes that they operated profitably during the summer that I'm surprised no-one has taken on.
Air Wales
Had Air Wales made it through the downturn, we still may have had a dedicated Airline mirroring the routes that Flybe operate, maybe a few more.

But clearly the above 2 were small fish in a big pond.
Theres also Zoom, Travel City, Globespan (that never started but planned to switch from BRS) and Monarch, all casualties of the financial downturn. None of which would provided masses of expansion but all of which at the time had no direct competition from BRS.
Add on to that a number a failed Tour Operators that provided decent capacity. One being Goldtrail and the other I forget the name of but was offering similar holidays to Goldtrail to the likes of Turkey and Greece.

So although CWL was probably slow on the uptake and poorly managed from the late 2000s, CWL has also had some bad luck in the Airlines and Tour Operators its attracted in the past going under. The noticable difference is BRS managed to attract the strong healthy Airlines that are still around today. CWL has a lot of work to do, in very tough times for Airlines, to attract new carriers that are in a stable position.
My best are on FR expansion next.
 
Does anyone agree with me that if the problem is BRS it's one largely of CWL's own making?
In a way yes they were, CWL has had a lack of investment from it's owners with most work done on the terminal just essentially decorating and maybe a lack of forward thinking especially when it came to Ryanair in the past though I've been told the management at the time felt Aer Arran a more than adequate replacement for them on the route. I was also told that, I believe it may have been pre BRS base days, that the management turned away Easyjet, whether that is actually true or not I don't know.
Cardiff has unfortunately had some ill luck with airlines as the ones it seems to attract aren't generally stable. Hopefully Ryanair will continue to expand at the airport but I do feel it will be hard work for the airport to achieve that.
What will be interesting to see is if with the downturn in passenger numbers any new terminal that was planned gets put on hold or if the ambition of the plans gets toned down a bit.
But it is not all doom and gloom, KLM are expanding and Qatar seems to be doing well enough and the airport has a new airline in Loganair and it'll be interesting to see if they can develop anything expansion from them in the future.
 
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I think your assessment is too simplistic & a little bit disrespectful to management & workforce at BRS. After the report in the 70s Bristol City Council especially Cllr George Maggs refused to accept it & the appointment of the late Great Les Wilson was inspired. His knowledge of the aviation industry was immense & he never let the dogs abuse he got from locals ever get him down!! The arrival of PAT in 87 & then BRY in 91 was not a fluke. It was due to hard work & foresight. After his very untimely death BRS did not rest on their laurels they then appointed more ambitious & forward thinking management which resulted in the arrival of GOE. The forward thinking still continues to the present day. CWL have tried to follow BRS lead but copies are often doomed to failure.

If you've read any of my posts in F4A down the years you will see that I have frequently mentioned and admired the part that Les Wilson played in the BRS development - I was a huge fan of his and I wish that today's corporate industry approach (not just at BRS) could still find a place for inspired individuals such as Les. Perhaps there is still a place but I'm not aware of any examples. Likewise I've regularly commended the high quality of the airport's management since Les's untimely and tragic death.

In fact, my post yesterday was aimed at highlighting the inadequacy of the CWL ownership and management in the past that has led CWL to be in a worse position than it needed to be.

I will accept over-simplification in my post but not disrespect to the BRS management and staff, either current or past. There is nothing in my post that suggests that and neither is any intended. It's due to them, and I suspect supportive owners, that BRS punches above its weight given its many physical disadvantages. I reckon that even Les Wilson would be gobsmacked at the thought of the airport approaching 10 mppa.

I was also told that, I believe it may have been pre BRS base days, that the management turned away Easyjet, whether that is actually true or not I don't know.
I've heard that story too. If it happened it would have been in the early days of easyJet and would be another example of poor judgement on the part of the the CWL management and owners. By 2002 they were very happy to welcome bmi baby so I wonder about the substance of the easyJet story.

I've also heard people say that CWL was close to getting Go. If Barbara Cassani, the Go CEO is to be believed, and she should know, CWL was not one of the airports on Go's final short list. In her book about the airline Cassani says: "We were looking for a new base (at the time they only had a Stansted base - my italics), and after casting the net widely across Europe , it was down to one of East Midlands, Newcastle, Edinburgh/Glasgow or Bristol."

She goes on to praise the part played by John Parkin, the then BRS CEO, and after 'difficult' negotiations involving many 'complex' issues a deal was agreed to set up a BRS base. The deal almost foundered at the eleventh hour though when BRS wanted to levy a capital charge that had not been part of the original proposal. Cassani told Parkin that such a charge would be a 'deal-breaker' and so it was withdrawn.
 
I agree with Foxlimayankee saying this thread keeps being brought up. Every time the same thing is brought up but different ways round. I admire TLY with his response,which is replied different way round.There is only so much that can be said on any subject,and what ever the subject is,it does not make the problem go away. I have a lot of respect for TLY in what and how he puts things,but there must be times when a thread is flogged to death he must be thinking what or how much different can I put things.
Sorry if my post upsets people,but someone had to say it. Rant over.
 
I agree with Foxlimayankee saying this thread keeps being brought up. Every time the same thing is brought up but different ways round. I admire TLY with his response,which is replied different way round.There is only so much that can be said on any subject,and what ever the subject is,it does not make the problem go away. I have a lot of respect for TLY in what and how he puts things,but there must be times when a thread is flogged to death he must be thinking what or how much different can I put things.
Sorry if my post upsets people,but someone had to say it. Rant over.
It will always be a running theme in any sort of Cardiff airport debate and conversation in how Bristol effects it and no doubt the subject will come up again in the future. Especially as Bristol is used time and again by many people as a club to beat Cardiff with for it's actual or perceived failures.
 
When I developed my interest in commercial aviation in the mid 60's, Cambrian A/W and Dan Air operated a lot of flights from both airports together. There were very few separate services from each airport JER, I believe, was one.
 
Well this should get the naysayers screaming for it to be sold or shutdown in the Senedd!
''Cardiff Airport's pre-tax losses have nearly trebled in a year as bosses warn the loss of Thomas Cook will only really be felt in next year's accounts.
In its financial statements and annual report for the year ending March 31, 2019, the airport declared a pre-tax loss of £18.5m – almost three times the pre-tax loss figure of £6.6m in the previous year's report.

The latest financial statement, which has just been published, shows the airport has been able to record a better turnover than the year before, up from £17.9m to £20.8m, but the loss for the financial year is recorded as £19.6m, up from £5.7m the year previously.''
 
Well this should get the naysayers screaming for it to be sold or shutdown in the Senedd!
''Cardiff Airport's pre-tax losses have nearly trebled in a year as bosses warn the loss of Thomas Cook will only really be felt in next year's accounts.
In its financial statements and annual report for the year ending March 31, 2019, the airport declared a pre-tax loss of £18.5m – almost three times the pre-tax loss figure of £6.6m in the previous year's report.

The latest financial statement, which has just been published, shows the airport has been able to record a better turnover than the year before, up from £17.9m to £20.8m, but the loss for the financial year is recorded as £19.6m, up from £5.7m the year previously.''

The below section of the financial report (in italics) should also be read in conjunction with the overall pre-tax loss.

In light of the continuing volatility and uncertainty in the global economy and specifically the aviation industry including recent airline failures, we have reviewed the life over which we measure our intangible assets and taken the prudent decision to write down the value of these assets. This has resulted in an exceptional charge of £9.3m which is reflected in our accounts for this financial year.

The intangible assets include such items as goodwill, brand recognition, intellectual property rights (patents, trademarks and copyrights) which the airport believes are negatively impacted by global and more localised aviation issues. The former includes Brexit uncertainty, Sterling weakness, climate change and rising fuel prices, whilst the loss of Thomas Cook and the scaling back of Flybe has significantly adversey affected the airport.

As the report points out, there are positive factors such as the continuing passenger growth (although unless the Thomas Cook and Flybe factor can be addressed quickly growth might stall in 2020), rising turnover and another positive EBITDA. The last aspect though is more a measure of the airport's current day-to-day health compared with its peers rather than a long-term health prognosis. It's also a bit like a family being able to manage on its income as long as mortgage repayments, other debts and the wearing-out of domestic appliances that will eventually need replacement are not taken into account.

I wonder whether the WG will now look at private sector involvement as a more pressing need.
 
I wonder whether the WG will now look at private sector involvement as a more pressing need.
Here's a question. If the airport was in private hands would people expect the higher management to lose their job over results like this?
The below section of the financial report (in italics) should also be read in conjunction with the overall pre-tax loss.
The problem is that unfortunately people will only focus on the simplicity of loss or profit.
 
Here's a question. If the airport was in private hands would people expect the higher management to lose their job over results like this?

Not necessarily. Private sector companies (in any sector, not just aviation) do sometimes get rid of their CEO's if there is an overriding reason for someone having to carry the can in the case of mounting losses, or sometimes because growth has not reached a target.

Unless there was some maladministration of 'the books' (and there is certainly no suggestion of that with CWL) it's difficult to see how anyone else could have done much better with the material available to them, or perhaps a lack of material in the sense of airline customers.

In another age it might have been possible for an outstanding and gifted personality to make a major difference but in today's more corporate business society that might no longer be viable. In the BRS threads it is sometimes mentioned how a larger-than-life individual called Les Wilson (sadly no longer with us) almost single-handedly turned around a loss-making Bristol Airport when he was appointed MD around 1980. That was then and even he might not have been able to repeat that feat in the 2020s.

I didn't raise the private sector issue because I thought the senior management might be better. It was more a case of wondering if the WG might decide that a private sector partner would be appropriate now, especially with the injection of cash that would almost certainly form part of any agreement. Against that the value of the airport might have dropped and there would also be the debt situation to take into account when a purchase price (almost certainly a part purchase) and private sector investment was being negotiated.

The problem is that unfortunately people will only focus on the simplicity of loss or profit.
Some will no doubt but the decision-makers will be aware of the overall situation, albeit party politics will intrude. I shall be interested to see the reaction of the Conservatives in the Senedd.
 
There's probably a number of things that also come under the financial results that wouldn't be put out in the public domain;
- Any marketing budget offered to QR (Or whatever has been offered to them to get around state aid rules)
- Costs in upgrades for the arrival of QR - Airbridges & installation (including stand readjustments), upgraded departures and executive lounge
- Any deal still outstanding with Flybe if it was in the form of ongoing payment
- Any incentive provided to FR to operate new routes (I highly doubt they've arrived of their own accord)
- Other terminal upgrades, landscaping, car park adjustments and the introduction of new car parking services all come at a cost that will not be seen in following years.

2018/2019 was a busy year of "putting things in place" and setting the foundations for the future at CWL, so there's probably been a fair bit of expenditure hidden in the books.

I'm sure the WG will scrutinise everything and I really can't see any management jobs being at risk if the proof that it is just simply a struggle to get Airlines in is there.
 
Now that we are not just in a new year but a new decade what is the top 3 things that people want or expect to happen at CWL over the next decade?
Me personally it has to be firstly a Jet2/Ryanair base not bothered as to which airline in particular, secondly a new terminal would be nice and thirdly as it would benefit me personally a 4th daily lunchtime flight with KLM.
 
Now that we are not just in a new year but a new decade what is the top 3 things that people want or expect to happen at CWL over the next decade?
Me personally it has to be firstly a Jet2/Ryanair base not bothered as to which airline in particular, secondly a new terminal would be nice and thirdly as it would benefit me personally a 4th daily lunchtime flight with KLM.
Your hopes seem very modest, Jerry, considering the next ten years are in prospect. I think that if CWL doesn't get itself a substantial low-cost presence in the next decade it might not be around by 2030. It needs a low-cost presence to substantially increase footfall in order to balance the fixed costs that the airport has to bear irrespective of the number of passengers, and then drive beyond a balanced income/expenditure to bring the airport into profit.

I will be amazed if that low-cost presence doesn't materialise in some expanded form, perhaps kicking off as soon as next year. As far as Jet2 and Ryanair are concerned, they don't seem to serve many city routes, especially from their smaller bases, to the degree seen by easyJet, and these routes are very important for business in particular.

Looking further into the decade, whilst no-one can predict what might happen domestically or internationally to affect the aviation industry, I would think that the CWL owners and management would be hoping for more than a low-cost presence and an extra KLM rotation per day by the end of the decade if the airport is to really prosper.

I did a post recently in the Bristol Airport thread suggesting that 2020 could be a defining year for that airport's future. It might not be completely out of court to suggest that the next 2-3 years will also define CWL's future.
 
Your hopes seem very modest, Jerry, considering the next ten years are in prospect.
Well i only said top 3!
Cardiff needs either Ryanair or Jet2, Ryanair would be more ideal as they would provide a balance to TUI and a 2 to 3 aircraft base would essentially be a replacement for bmiBaby but Jet2 might be more suitable but they could effect TUI.
Looking further into the decade, whilst no-one can predict what might happen domestically or internationally to affect the aviation industry, I would think that the CWL owners and management would be hoping for more than a low-cost presence and an extra KLM rotation per day by the end of the decade if the airport is to really prosper.
Well looking ahead i can't see what else the airport would get passenger wise, I'd imagine they'd want to try and get TUI to base a 4th but would they consider summer long haul? and Flybe to add extra frequencies as well as Qatar Airways but what other airlines is the airport likely to attract? The other side would be an expansion of the cargo operations but for that i feel they'd need a logistics firm or a company like Amazon to setup a distribution centre nearby or a specific contract for cargo charters.
 
Fairly predictable response.

I've seen a lot of criticism of Cardiff airport with relation to these losses especially against the management of the airport yet no one has actually said what the airport is doing wrong and how they would've done things differently. It seems that to me people seem to expect that the government would click it's fingers and airlines would be queuing up to serve Cardiff.
 

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