Road, Rail & Access Issues


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Tarn Spotter

Platinum Member
Nov 5, 2012
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This rail station is for the next century not a few years. Its not to close to the airport and its distance should be decreed by the best route for the rail track, taking in to account gradients etc.
Luton parkway is 2 miles from the airport, shortly the new links will result in a journey time of 4 minutes and an additional 30 minutes travel time to central London.
The Air-Rail link at Birmingham International rail station takes two minutes to the airport, not sure the distance, but I used to get the pod in to the NEC in the 80's. I can remember Leicester turning down the NEC as a site, before Birmingham picked up the baton. Leicester thought no one would move out of Earls Court or London for trade shows, those of us who moved from Earls Court in 1976 to the NEC for the Spring Fair etc, know how flawed that judgement was.
If you believe as I do that in decades time all the retail outlets etc will be land side not air side, this one mile will have cinemas, bowling, shopping , food etc, with a case drop off area as you walk in, allowing you to enjoy all the facilities.
We need to get rid of this obsession with placing things on the door step to an existing structure, when spain built their high speed routes and chose the towns to be included, they built the stations in the best spot for the route and possible expansion, for example, whilst Antequera station is in the centre the AVE high speed station is 19Km away, allowing an industrial area around the station without the impact it would have on the historic central area (think York with regard to Antequeras historical heritage). When opened in 2006 seen as a white elephant until realised the Crewe of the Andalucia region, the cross roads for rail travel in the region, with rail steps to move from the AVE gauge to the standard.
 

louis_walton

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
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Farsley
I think it's a perfect idea. What is Stuart Andrew expecting to get of the train on the runway? I think people (especially councillors) are forgetting that anyone visiting the city won't have a car and why would anyone staying in the city want to rent one if they can get the train? I personally have got the train from Prague, Krakow and Berlin airport's into the city centres and it has been very efficient and convenient. So it will be great for passengers living or visiting Leeds to quickly get to the airport. Business travellers would surely love it being able to get of the 8:00 Dublin arrival and hop on the train straight into the centre. Clearly the council just done want to make LBA better...
 

a300boy

Moderator
Staff member
Dec 8, 2010
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I did not listen to the live meeting and based on what Statto and others have said we are still on course to have the station built however with recent events relating to the link road it hardly breads confidence that it will happen.
The press release seems to have been based on one council members comments.
Not so long ago we had members of this forum telling us at last LCC were on board and what a good place the Airport were in with a situation they had long wanted.
Hope you have your optimism rewarded you ever positive members its not looking good in my opinion.
 

White Heather

Platinum Member
Jan 14, 2009
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I think it's a perfect idea. What is Stuart Andrew expecting to get of the train on the runway? I think people (especially councillors) are forgetting that anyone visiting the city won't have a car and why would anyone staying in the city want to rent one if they can get the train? I personally have got the train from Prague, Krakow and Berlin airport's into the city centres and it has been very efficient and convenient. So it will be great for passengers living or visiting Leeds to quickly get to the airport. Business travellers would surely love it being able to get of the 8:00 Dublin arrival and hop on the train straight into the centre. Clearly the council just done want to make LBA better...
I believe it was Cllr Andrew Carter, not Stuart Andrew, who is the Pudsey MP. In my view his argument is simply a way of stalling or even stopping the station without being seen to do so by the public, as he must know that civil engineers and specialists in railway engineering said several years ago in their report that the gradient up to the airport from the Harrogate line (or the Guiseley line for that matter) was too steep for heavy rail. Assuming the distance is, as KARFA suggested, 1.7 miles (I think that it is less than that personally having lived in the area all my life, but hey, it doesn't really matter), a bus, operating on a dedicated access road up to Scotland Lane and then via Scotland Lane and Whitehouse Lane to the airport's front doorstep, will take no more than 5 or 6 minutes. There are no hold ups, no traffic lights, no junctions other than the right turn left into Scotland Lane and then a left turn into Whitehouse Lane. I would think that if this scheme goes ahead, the roads will be improved between the airport and parkway station anyway. In my view, 5 or 6 minutes on a dedicated transfer coach which drops you right at the airport's front door, is perfectly acceptable. The only thing in my view that would make it unacceptable is if the airport have the shuttle buses operating back to the terminal via the long stay car parks, condemning rail passengers to a tour of the car park facilities. They need to have a dedicated station shuttle bus that is not the same one that tours around the car parks, because if they did that they would be certain to upset either the rail passengers or the car park passengers - or possibly both. Not a good idea. It takes very little to upset airport passengers from what I see and read.
 

Heathrowflyer

Active Member
Oct 29, 2019
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Wakefield
in terms of planning the built environment, road infrastructure is developed in tandem with public transport, housing and economic development. As we know the road transport plan has been scrapped by the council. Its therefore chicken and egg, any parkway development has to be furure proofed for a sizeable population increase in the region and a projected massive increase in pax numbers in the next 10 years. Tinkering with widening roads (and adding a cycle lane!)will not be enough. The roads in the area are already at capacity. In addition, neither First Bus or Northern Rail in the region can meet the demand currently. Anyone who commutes daily (or watches the news) can vouch for massive delays and cancellations.

Extra carriages on the trains are needed and increased services. This would need licence agreement overhauls because the train system is also at capacity. Big thinking and big ideas are needed to alleviate traffic around the airport going forward over the next 30 to 40 years.

For accuracy, the council meeting did not just voice concerns from Cllr Carter ( I think Statto mentioned this to be the case). Cllr Gollan ( Lib Dem leader) expressed considerable concerns about transport infrastructure in the area around the area and Northern rail capacity on this line being at capacity, alongside the need for meaningful consultation about any plans with local residents. Remember this is the Council Executive so concerns from the two main opposition parties is therefore a sizeable part of the meeting and thus influence. In addition, the most worrying comments were made by council officials who are the ones actually modelling this work:

"The council officer responded: “We are fully engaged with Northern and Network Rail. But, as we all know, the industry at the moment is in considerable turmoil in terms of what is being delivered.
“We believe there remains an ambition to increase frequencies of services on the Harrogate Line – not at this present moment in time, but a significant increase in the train service in the short to the medium term.
“There is an ambition for further investment in the Harrogate line to bring it up to the standard of some of the other lines – we are not in a place at the moment where we can do that, but we are pushing for investment.”"

To me the above statement smacks of years of deliberation and when the word 'turmoil' is used by the council one knows there will be no quick fixes.
 

Aviador

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Jan 12, 2009
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As I think White Heather pointed out previously in this thread, the airport parkway and the airport link road went hand in hand together. Leeds City Council have knee jerked into a decision to cancel the link road without assessing the subsequent implications to the proposed airport parkway. What they should have said is option A is the best option to enable access to the proposed parkway but additional design and planning would need to be carried out to improve public support. The decision to can the link road has scuppered plans for the parkway and the proposed business park. If plans for these go ahead the traffic around the airport, not necessarily airport related will be untenable.

As for the meeting, personally I think all the Councillors from whichever political party made valid contributions to the meeting. I don't understand the processes enough to apportion blame for the delay or the decision about the link road but I know they need to stop kicking the can down the road and get on with it.
 

White Heather

Platinum Member
Jan 14, 2009
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Me thinks we should have another consultation process!!!!! (Joking, but looks likely)
And when we do, the NIMBYS will once again object and the council will once again opt for a quiet life and just leave things as they are. All this after only a year ago, there was supposed to be consensus among council and West Yorkshire Combined Authority that the parkway station was going to be the way forward and that the funding would be available. Trains on the Harrogate line are already more frequent (now every 20 minutes), and they are now longer and fully refurbished ex Scotrail trains.

I have never known another council that dithers so much about making a decision. whenever it impacts on this part of Leeds and the airport in particular. There wasn't all this over opening Kirkstall Forge Station, building masses of houses and commercial buildings around it, and a park and ride, and in so doing adding loads of extra traffic to the Kirkstall Road, which was already at capacity. In comparison, opening a parkway station will have little impact that could be construed as negative. In fact it would enable a lot of traffic heading into and out of Leeds to come off the road and take a lot of the strain off Horsforth Station, because the people of the lower end of Cookridge would be able to access the new station also for their commute. I find it odd that councillors are always looking for something perfect whenever it comes to transport around the airport, and the truth is, that perfect doesn't exist - and if it did, they wouldn't have the money. The cynic in me makes me think that these councillors are throwing obstacles in the way as a means to stop the development without actually appearing to be doing so. For me, the chances of this station being built took a huge hit the minute they axed the link road. The two projects were inextricably linked.
 

Bigman

Platinum Member
Jan 14, 2009
1,645
113
OK, bedtime reading!! My cunning plan for a fixed rail solution…Tram Trains running a route as follows:

Leeds – Airport Section - to incorporate street level running in Leeds City Centre

City Square (Terminus)
Park Row (South Parade)
Headrow (Dortmund Square)
Vicar Lane (Victoria Gate)
Boar Lane (Trinity)
New Station Street (Leeds City Station)
Wellington Street (Central Square)
City Island
Armley Road
Burley Park (interchange with Northern Rail)
Headingley (Carnegie Stadium)
Headingley (Kirkstall Lane) (interchange with Northern Rail)
Hawksworth Wood (new park-and-ride on the Ring Road)
Horsforth (interchange with LNER and Northern Rail)
Leeds Bradford Airport

Airport – Bradford Section - to incorporate street level running in Bradford City Centre

Leeds Bradford Airport
Airport West Business Park
High Royds (new park-and-ride next to the A65)
Guiseley (interchange with Northern Rail)
Esholt
Baildon (interchange with Northern Rail)
Shipley (interchange with LNER and Northern Rail)
Frizinghall (interchange with Northern Rail)
Valley Parade (for Utilita Energy Stadium)
Forster Square (interchange with LNER and Northern Rail)
Market Street
Norfolk Gardens
Bradford Interchange (interchange with Grand Central and Northern Rail)

Bradford – Leeds Section – to incorporate street level running in Leeds City Centre

Bradford Interchange (interchange with Grand Central and Northern Rail)
Wakefield Road
(Depot to be based at Hammerton Street)
Laisterdyke (for Leeds Odeon)
New Pudsey (interchange with Northern Rail)
Stanningley (for Owlcotes Centre)
Bramley (interchange with Northern Rail)
Armley Heights
Armley Moor
Copley Hill
City Island
Wellington Street (Central Square)
City Square (Terminus)

So that’s direct fixed-rail services from both Leeds and Bradford, with good interchanges at Shipley and Horsforth. This would also make use of the extensive parking available at New Pudsey, with new park-and-ride facilities also proving useful.

It would also make it a damn sight easier to get to both Headingley and Valley Parade on match days and take loads of cars off the road.

And one of the biggest benefits would be that Bradford finally gets it’s railway lines linked up.

The current single track section between Guiseley and Shipley would need to be doubled again and the redundant second platform at Baildon reinstated. As they have done at Rotherham Central, you would need to extend all existing rail platforms where there would be interchanges with new low-height platforms to provide seamless interchanges.

At the end of the day the technology is now proven and working thanks to Supertram, so let’s just get on and do it!!
 

lbaspotter

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Jan 14, 2009
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Nothing will ever connect if Northern Rail (Arriva DB) are still operating the franchise if and when the Airport Parkway station eventually opens due to late running or cancelled trains which has now become the norm.
Saying that it dose look like the Transport Secretary, Grant Shapps will strip current operator Northern Rail of its franchise by the end of this month with the possibility it maybe re-nationalised.
 

Heathrowflyer

Active Member
Oct 29, 2019
72
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Wakefield
Yesterday I got the train to Sheffield...just 36 miles. Proved to be an awful frequency, hardly any of the trains do first class or pre bookable seats, and it took 1 hr 20 mins. Sadly it says a lot about our region where it is far easier to get by train to the other side of the Pennines ( far quicker with better frequency to Manchester and Liverpool) than another city in Yorkshire. Somewhere along the line, as a region, we allowed this to happen.
 

Bigman

Platinum Member
Jan 14, 2009
1,645
113
At some point the Northern service from Leeds to Nottingham is going to be diverted to operate via Wakefield Westgate and the Moorthorpe route. This will vastly speed up the Nottingham service and also give a second much faster train alongside the current hourly Cross Country service. The 195's also have mice tables..but take a cushion with you...ride quality is awful!!
 

White Heather

Platinum Member
Jan 14, 2009
4,143
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Leeds
Well that was a good read! It was particularly interesting to see that the council are most definitely behind the Parkway Station along with the Park and Ride scheme and that roads would be constructed linking the Parkway Station to LBA, and then presumably up to the new Employment Hub - and also from the A658 to the Employment hub itself, and the total budget for all this is considerably less than the original road link proposals. Well, it would be wouldn't it?

In particular it was also interesting to see the Government take re aviation and climate change and it seems to say that individual airports and cities they serve should not be taking individual action and they should follow Government directives which would be aimed equally across the country. I read that to mean that if one airport has to cut back, so do the rest. For me that is the only fair way. Having read this though I feel more encouraged the Council will support the terminal development, as firstly not doing so would possibly be contravening the Government directive and seen to be treating LBA unfairly (in terms of competition) , and secondly, they are wanting funding from LBA towards what they are planning. This would normally come via a Section 106 payment attached to a Planning Consent, which of course, LBA will be submitting in the Spring. If the Council want LBA to put funds into the pot, they are not likely to say no to the scheme - otherwise they won't get the money from the airport.

Although we know that the new terminal would be Carbon neutral from when it opens in 2023, the Council clearly want LBA to do more to counter the impact of aviation on the local environment. I wonder if LBA might therefore fund a tree planting scheme or similar in the future to help offset the impact of the aircraft using the airport?
 

Aviador

Administrator
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Jan 12, 2009
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Thanks @White Heather you clearly have a eye for the detail but I guess it's taking part in all these consultative meetings that perfects this quality. An airport funded city forest or nature reserve sounds a great idea and it's something I have thought also. I know there are plans for a northern forest which is partly funded by the government I understand. Perhaps this is something LBA could get involved with and be very vocal about. Some other airports have also got some great community funds and are getting really involved with their local communities, this is something LBA really needs to be doing now. They need to be on a charmed offensive .Gatwick projects for example.
 
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