Route Development & Rumours

[Finger66]

Very well said lbaspotter. Wish BCFC had beaten DRFC 4 - 1 at the weekend to match Yorkshires no1 airports victory

 

[Silvercity]

I anticipated somebody would say that but the Brussels "hub" is not what it once was.

I think Brussels Airlines are now concentrating on Africa for long haul. They are pulling of Delhi soon.

 

[White Heather]

The gap between DSA and LBA, is only getting bigger in favour of LBA. It takes more than a flight to the USA to change that. DSA has just had a 10% reduction in passengers in August, their busiest month. It is quite clear that one of the main reasons for the terminal development at LBA is to enable passenger numbers to rise to at least 7m and hopefully more. It will also enable the handling of wide body aircraft of 300 to 400 seats, which currently the limited seating, departure gates and baggage re-claim area prevents. Reading between the lines at last week's Consultative Meeting, LBA management seem confident that when it is completed, we have every chance of seeing wide body flights and on long haul routes. The Boeing 787 was specifically mentioned by the LBA CEO as an 'ideal aircraft for LBA'.

As for DSA, talk of them getting a direct rail link on the East Coast Main Line is just talk, and it is highly unlikely to happen. The location of the airport is still too far from most of its catchment area and where Sheffield is concerned, it remains all to easy to reach MAN from West Sheffield, EMA from South Sheffield and even LBA from the North side of the city and Barnsley area. DSA is continuing to lose passengers to all three.

We have heard all the talk about DSA taking over from LBA before. When it opened, more than 10 years ago now, we were all told it was going to take over from LBA as the main Yorkshire airport (despite the fact it is barely in the county at all being just a few miles from the Nottinghamshire border). Since then, airlines have come and gone, routes have come and gone, and today they still carry just over 1m passengers whilst LBA has in that time doubled its passengers to 4m and likely to rise further over the next few years.

I totally agree with lbaspotter. I do not understand why a single route to the USA means that LBA's position as the main Yorkshire airport is under any threat at all. I can see no way that DSA is going to increase it's passenger numbers by 3m any more than I can see any way LBA passenger numbers are going to stay at 4m and allow them to catch up any time soon.

 

[Finger66]

Africa is a good market and there will be some point to point stuff. And there will be connections to other points too. If rumours are true it's bmir to BRU and MUC plus poss one more from them on non based. Then there is this still mystery Eurowings (oops sorry airline) announcement to come

 

[LBA8098]

https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co...-bradford-airport-winter-ski-routes-1-9368235

 

[White Heather]

Africa is a good market and there will be some point to point stuff. And there will be connections to other points too. If rumours are true it's bmir to BRU and MUC plus poss one more from them on non based. Then there is this still mystery Eurowings (oops sorry airline) announcement to come

All i


All It needs is Ryanair to set up shop there....JET2 to fall out with LBA management and the rolls will be reversed God forbid....not to mention Easy.....Let’s not take things for granted these airlines have to make decent profits for shareholders and they really don’t give two hoots if it’s LBA or DSA they fly out from.

Can you imagine the cost to Jet2 of falling out with LBA management and moving an entire base to DSA? Come on! It isn't just 13 or 14 aircraft, it's literally hundreds of crews, engineering, catering, and that is before you even consider that they have their booking office at LBA, their head office in Leeds and their air crew training in Bradford. It would have to be one almighty fall out to justify the huge expense and disruption and they would, likely as not, lose half their staff overnight. Why would they? Jet2 fill aircraft consistently from LBA. Would they take the risk of moving to an airport that has a history of NOT filling aircraft with most of the airlines that have flown from there?
Don't forget that airlines such as Ryanair and Easyjet are among the airlines to try to operate profitably from DSA and they failed. Nobody takes anything for granted, which is why they are about to invest the £12m.
Finger 66, funnily enough, I was told that the mystery airline is NOT Eurowings, but I guess we will have to wait a while to find out for sure.

 

[a300boy]

Easyjet also failed at Lba and they were the airline I wanted to keep for a more diverse operator base and winter operations. The positive moves that we are seeing here are encouraging so lets hope that the management can keep what we have and support the new routes and not loose them after a short period.

 

[oldendays]

easyJet failed at LBA but then I'm not sure they were serious about it to begin with. Their sparse Geneva offering was a half-arsed attempt to regain some of the (winter) traffic lost to Jet2 at Manchester. Sabre-rattling if you will. I'd welcome easy back tomorrow if I thought they'd do the job properly.

 

[paully]

Another one to consider might be Air France loco subsidiary Joon..Today they have announced that from March 2019 Joon will be operating flights out of Manchester to CDG (replacing mainline)..Seeing as how KLM successfully operate out of both could Joon A320`s soon be seen at Leeds?

 

[MickLufc]

We were told that AMP Capital had 'signed off' the deal with the unknown airline on the unknown route, which is not the same thing as the deal actually being completed with the airline. Once AMP had signed it off, I would think that LBA management and the airline management will need to get together and formally sign the contract, with any announcement being made shortly after. It shouldn't take long, but bear in mind it is only 4 working days since AMP approved it.

Gone are the days of Tony Hallwoods cheesy grin announcing such things!

 

[Bigman]

Why has this thread turned into yet another LBA v Donny slag off??

 

[Finger66]

Because they deserve it

 

[Rob c DSA]

Why has this thread turned into yet another LBA v Donny slag off??

I did wonder the same yes they are local rivals but they are two airports in totally different places the only thing that is the same is they are competing for new airlines to operate from there airport and to open new routes with new or existing airlines.

LBA has PAX numbers DSA can't match and DSA has a reasonable cargo operation LBA will never have, the reality is Doncaster needs to find other ways to be a successful airport where LBA doesn't need to rely on other operations the same . I personally feel DSA does under achieve however it took LBA along time to realise its potential?. Swings and roundabouts the whole debate it is like a Bristol V Cardiff debate one is far bigger the other has the BA maintenance facility.

For me good luck to LBA in whatever they achieve the airport is very lucky to have a carrier like Jet 2 they really key to the airports success and give stability at LBA that some other carriers wouldn't what my local airport needs is Wizz to do something similar.

 

[White Heather]

I cannot disagree with that Rob. DSA has its place in the airport hierarchy and will always be far more successful for cargo operations than LBA will ever be. It is unfortunate for DSA however that much of the success you might have achieved will not happen due to the proximity of East Midlands, which is already a major cargo centre and continuing to attract the lions share of freight operations, helped of course by its location next to the M1 and A69/M69 across to Birmingham. Hopefully DSA will continue to attract as much of the more local freight as possible as they seem to be doing at the moment.

With regard to passenger traffic, DSA will, I feel, struggle for rapid growth due to its location and other airports in the vicinity, as I posted earlier. This is actually the very point made by other opposing airports during the public enquiry into DSA before it even got approval to open.

As for DSA slagging - that isn't what I am doing. I am simply pointing out facts. And yes, LBA took many years to get going and start to achieve anything, but the situations are different. DSA has had support from the local council and money has been thrown at it from the outset. It has a very long runway, loads of space, a new terminal, a new road (now) and on the face of it, should have all that an airport needs. Except, location close to its main catchment area. LBA was totally different. For many years it was NOT supported, even by the local authorities and we had the ridiculous situation whereby Leeds City Council took part in a public enquiry opposing its own airport's development. Councillors were more interested in pacifying their local voters than the longer term vision for the airport, and were regularly to be heard questioning the need for an airport at all when we had Manchester only 65 miles away. Fortunately, times are changing, but that is the principle reason why LBA has taken so many years to start to reach its potential. Then on top of that, when the Council's sold LBA to the private sector, they did so to an organisation which was never really prepared to invest to the degree needed. At last, that appears to be changing.

At the time, I admit I wasn't best pleased that DSA was built, simply because I had just spent a lot of time and effort campaigning to get the obstacles removed from LBA. Having finally done so, the last thing LBA needed was another airport coming on the scene stating that it was going to replace LBA as the airport for the region, and of course the immediate impact was the loss of a based Thomson aircraft - the airline that had done more than most to help LBA develop during the bad times. The hope had been a Multi Aircraft base, and instead, we ended up with nothing at all for several years. It was Thomas Cook, and then Jet2 who came to the rescue. Now DSA is here, I hope it is successful, but not at the expense of LBA.

 

[Finger66]

I think my earlier comment of "Because they deserve it" may have been slightly uncalled for. However there are certainly Delusions of Grandeur where DSA is concerned. Yes it has a part to play in Yorkshire aviation but that is most definitely as no2 to LBA where pax are concerned. The figures prove it today and they will prove it tomorrow

 

[Rob c DSA]

I cannot disagree with that Rob. DSA has its place in the airport hierarchy and will always be far more successful for cargo operations than LBA will ever be. It is unfortunate for DSA however that much of the success you might have achieved will not happen due to the proximity of East Midlands, which is already a major cargo centre and continuing to attract the lions share of freight operations, helped of course by its location next to the M1 and A69/M69 across to Birmingham. Hopefully DSA will continue to attract as much of the more local freight as possible as they seem to be doing at the moment.

With regard to passenger traffic, DSA will, I feel, struggle for rapid growth due to its location and other airports in the vicinity, as I posted earlier. This is actually the very point made by other opposing airports during the public enquiry into DSA before it even got approval to open.

As for DSA slagging - that isn't what I am doing. I am simply pointing out facts. And yes, LBA took many years to get going and start to achieve anything, but the situations are different. DSA has had support from the local council and money has been thrown at it from the outset. It has a very long runway, loads of space, a new terminal, a new road (now) and on the face of it, should have all that an airport needs. Except, location close to its main catchment area. LBA was totally different. For many years it was NOT supported, even by the local authorities and we had the ridiculous situation whereby Leeds City Council took part in a public enquiry opposing its own airport's development. Councillors were more interested in pacifying their local voters than the longer term vision for the airport, and were regularly to be heard questioning the need for an airport at all when we had Manchester only 65 miles away. Fortunately, times are changing, but that is the principle reason why LBA has taken so many years to start to reach its potential. Then on top of that, when the Council's sold LBA to the private sector, they did so to an organisation which was never really prepared to invest to the degree needed. At last, that appears to be changing.

At the time, I admit I wasn't best pleased that DSA was built, simply because I had just spent a lot of time and effort campaigning to get the obstacles removed from LBA. Having finally done so, the last thing LBA needed was another airport coming on the scene stating that it was going to replace LBA as the airport for the region, and of course the immediate impact was the loss of a based Thomson aircraft - the airline that had done more than most to help LBA develop during the bad times. The hope had been a Multi Aircraft base, and instead, we ended up with nothing at all for several years. It was Thomas Cook, and then Jet2 who came to the rescue. Now DSA is here, I hope it is successful, but not at the expense of LBA.

A very well thought out post. The issue for not just DSA or LBA is Manchester whatever they are doing they are doing very well BHX is also suffering the MAN effect I have to be honest as a supporter of DSA was it needed maybe not maybe so the general Humber/Midlands/Yorkshire/Lancashire region has such an array of airports to choose from it must be unheard of anywhere in Europe the proximity of so many airports in such a small area makes life tough for all except MAN.

LBA has a better chance of securing business routes than DSA. DSA seems incapable of keeping them when they get them the routes soon go and it looks like they will never take off and succeed. What I feel DSA is lacking that it should have and to me is a failing by management is a number of basic routes that are not currently served along with some of the bucket and served from multiple carriers with numerous frequencies LBA has this and for me DSA should of achieved it by now. LBA and long haul not sure myself if that will ever be a goer if it was to happen it would be a great fillip for the airport. Lets hope both airports can be a sucess

 

[White Heather]

A very well thought out post. The issue for not just DSA or LBA is Manchester whatever they are doing they are doing very well BHX is also suffering the MAN effect I have to be honest as a supporter of DSA was it needed maybe not maybe so the general Humber/Midlands/Yorkshire/Lancashire region has such an array of airports to choose from it must be unheard of anywhere in Europe the proximity of so many airports in such a small area makes life tough for all except MAN.

LBA has a better chance of securing business routes than DSA. DSA seems incapable of keeping them when they get them the routes soon go and it looks like they will never take off and succeed. What I feel DSA is lacking that it should have and to me is a failing by management is a number of basic routes that are not currently served along with some of the bucket and served from multiple carriers with numerous frequencies LBA has this and for me DSA should of achieved it by now. LBA and long haul not sure myself if that will ever be a goer if it was to happen it would be a great fillip for the airport. Lets hope both airports can be a sucess

I don't think LBA will ever have a great offering of long haul, but with aircraft such as the 787, A350, or 777, there is every chance of routes to the Middle East and Pakistan in the future, and possibly to Miami as a holiday flight. Don't forget we had a regular flight to Islamabad which at one time was 3 times weekly, for a good few years and it did well despite the ageing A310 aircraft. It was well used and remains a high priority for LBA management. We also had in the past Britannia flights to Bridgetown (Barbados), and briefly to Miami, using 767 equipment. Some made it non stop, some had to stop to refuel, which isn't ideal, but the modern generation aircraft are capable of flying the route non stop - or so I am informed by the people who should know - LBA management.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

We also had in the past Britannia flights to Bridgetown (Barbados), and briefly to Miami, using 767 equipment. Some made it non stop, some had to stop to refuel, which isn't ideal, but the modern generation aircraft are capable of flying the route non stop - or so I am informed by the people who should know - LBA management.

TUI flies its Boeing 787-8s from Bristol to Cancun Mexico, Sanford Florida and Punta Cana Dominican Republic each week non-stop and the BRS runway is shorter than LBA's. Very occasionally the longest route (Cancun) sees the aircraft calling at MAN outbound to take on fuel if winds en route are particularly adverse. So performance-wise LBA ought to cope.

 

[blotbuc1]

WH and RobcDSA have set out the problems which DSA faces in competition with other airports. When DSA was granted planning approval the Planning Inspector in his report to the Secretary of State said in his conclusion: ' There is no pressing 'aviation need' for the proposed airport, in the sense of a shortfall in capacity at other airports causing a situation requiring relief. However, the proposal ( the airport and other elements of the development) would greatly help to meet a need for economic regeneration, would create thousands of jobs and could be an important economic catalyst in an area which lacks growth sector industries'. In granting approval the SoS agreed with this view and highlighted the regeneration benefits which the development as a whole would bring - not a ringing endorsement for the airport element of the development! However, like WH I hope DSA is successful, but not at the expense of LBA.
I also agree with WH in respect of LBA. At last we have an owner who is willing to invest and unprecedented political support, locally, regionally and even nationally ( at least supportive noises). I am more hopeful for the future than I have been for decades!

 

[Finger66]

Just playing a bit of catch up myself and referring back to a recent post by WH saying she had heard the mystery airline isn't Eurowings. As they are now no longer in the LBA menu of airlines when booking parking or lounges this could just be true. So if not I am very much hoping for AF or Joon. But I will stand by my comment that the other one to be announced will be bmir