Road, Rail & Access

[Dobbo]

In fairness to the West Midlands, it is pretty much entirely the Birmingham Metro area, which has an elected Mayor and the "Midlands engine" equivalent to the "Northern Powerhouse".

The difficulty they have is that they are one (Birmingham) whereas the North is at least five (Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool, Sheffield, Newcastle).

That's one of the reasons I think Birmingham might be well served jumping on the NP bandwagon.

 

[Land23R]

So, the Government says "we've allocated £13bn. Over to you chaps how you spend it"

I don't have a problem with the principle of devolution, but just a few questions:

1. What period is that meant to cover? 5 years, 10 years, 20 years?

2. How and when will the money be released?

3. What happens if new vital projects arise that were not part of the original proposed projects? I think Platforms 15 & 16 at Piccadilly may come into that category.

4. When it comes to detailed planning, do Works Orders, or whatever the correct term is, still have to be submitted to Whitehall and signed off by the Minister? Are we confident our civil servants will be as helpful and considerate when it comes to regional infrastructure as they seem to be to London if that is the case?

5. If it's up to the North to decide and act, why has Grayling interfered with cut-backs on Manchester-Leeds and other electrification schemes? Isn't it up to the North to agree which projects to prioritise?

6. And of course: What happens if it becomes obvious despite the use of all sorts of modern technology etc. that money allocated in total is insufficient for vital requirements? Is it back to the begging bowl for extra funds and competing with London and their latest ambitions?

 

[Land23R]

I should add my questions were asked more in ignorance than making a point, but are TfN clear on what powers they do have?

And a couple more:

Is there any funding structure in place or being formulated that will enable the Northern cities and businesses to contribute and augment money from Central Government?

How do National Rail fit into the picture? Who decides whether the North can have new state-of-the-art rolling stock, or whether London gets that and the North (and other regions) get their cast-offs, as has happened in the past? Is that covered under the devolved powers?

And finally, and perhaps more on topic, isn't MAN a crucial cog in this whole picture? My impression is that they have been slightly reticent. If so, is that because the issue embraces much wider transport, industrial and commercial concerns than just the airport, or even perhaps a sensitivity regarding other airports in the North?

 

[Scottie Dog]

Some very well thought out and sensible points are raised by Land23R.

Now he needs to get these across to the broader political parties and see what response he obtains. Time to live 'outside of the box'?

 

[Dobbo]

MAG are quite vocal about the need for HS3/NPR - principally because it expands the surface area catchment of MAN. They signed the recent letter, and tweeted about it (see below).

View attachment 5745

 

[Dobbo]

Some very well thought out and sensible points are raised by Land23R.

Now he needs to get these across to the broader political parties and see what response he obtains. Time to live 'outside of the box'?

Yes - one of the major issues is partisan party politics. That is one of the major issues George Osbourne and Sir Richard Lees bridged in 2014.

Andy Burnham managed to achieve this well yesterday, the problem I foresee is that the leaders of the two main parties are both (in different ways) battling to retain control of their respective parties and might choose this battleground to score points...

 

[Coathanger16]

A couple of points to cover:

Coathanger are there REALLY no initiatives in The Midlands that you can come up with rather than focusing on more sublte negativity ?

I'm not sure whether implied criticism of yesterday's initiative is representative of Midlands folk in general, hopefully not as you would have to be blind not to realise they are faced by the same issues. I feel sure many in Birmingham might want to relook at HS2 and reinvest that money in the Midlands network generally. HS2 is constantly put forward as a panacea for all the North ills despite it being two generations away........ if ever !!!

There are plenty of projects I would like to see go ahead in the Midlands, however I was conscious that this was a Manchester thread so didn't want to push that here. Equally, there are plenty of projects not just in the North and the Midlands, but also the South West, East, Scotland and Northern Island that surely are worthy of investment?

To be honest I'm broadly supportive of HS2. Although its almost exclusively quoted as "a line to London", another way to look at it is a high speed rail network linking Birmingham to Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, East Mids & London. None of these cities (except London) will have such a direct link to the other cities on the HS2 network. For instance, is it unlikely there will be direct trains from Manchester to East Mids, or Leeds to Crewe. Of course not all trains will call at Birmingham, but a great many will originate and terminate there, and there will be services originating at Birmingham that will go to all the other stations.

That sounds like a brief from Sir Humphrey. ..

"Money ?

Oh come , come , what on earth are you poor misguided fools worried about, their's barrel loads of the stuff, my dear old things, but you really need to tell us where to spend it chaps".

Patronising tosh !

(And where exactly did he agree to more spending ? I missed that one ).

I don't know for certain what Grayling is saying, but it sounds to me like he's saying to the North "you come up with proposals, come to us, and we'll decide whether or not to fund it". That is instead of the current setup where central government draw up proposals. Wouldn't you rather have people who are local to the projects, who know what is needed where, prioritize projects and go to government to get funding in that order?

In fairness to the West Midlands, it is pretty much entirely the Birmingham Metro area, which has an elected Mayor and the "Midlands engine" equivalent to the "Northern Powerhouse".

The difficulty they have is that they are one (Birmingham) whereas the North is at least five (Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool, Sheffield, Newcastle).

On the contrary there is more to the Midlands - it's called the EAST MIDLANDS! and includes the likes of Nottingham, Leicester and Derby! The North has Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield & Newcastle, and wants them to be connected by high speed rail. The Midlands has Birmingham, Nottingham, Leicester & Derby plus a number of smaller cities (e.g. Coventry), which need to be connected together as well. HS2 will go straight from Birmingham to Toton (in the Middle of Notts, Leic & Derby). It would be relatively easy to build spurs from the HS2 line to each of these cities, which would greatly improve journey times between each of those cities.

Again, I'm conscious this is a Manchester thread, but to highlight I'm not oblivious to the needs of the Midlands a few facts (by rail):

Leeds to Manchester, 43 miles, 49 mins (fastest), 53mph (average speed), roughly 4tph
Leicester to Birmingham, 40 miles, 50 mins (fastes) 48mph (average speed), roughly 2tph

I don't know what the trains are like between Leeds and Manchester, but the trains that operate between Leicester and Birmingham are often 2 or 3 carriages only so are always packed. Problems down here can be just as bad as up North.

As I understand it the Pacers are being phased out no - no need to send them down South. May I also remind poster that not all trains down South are swanky new ones. Indeed I've used some on the South West network that look just as bad as those I have seen on the news up North.

The key point here is whether or not money will indeed be spent in the regions. If the article in the post is accurate, Grayling was quoted as saying central government will provide funding for projects.

 

[Land23R]

Yes - one of the major issues is partisan party politics. That is one of the major issues George Osbourne and Sir Richard Lees bridged in 2014. ...

Good point. I think a lot of credit was also due to Sir Howard Bernstein in that regard. Personally, I didn't think it helpful of Rotheram to criticise Osborne the way he did in a tv interview the other day. Apologies if I'm repeating myself, but isn't it better to put party politics aside and rather useful to have a former Chancellor and now Editor of the London Evening Standard onside?

 

[Dobbo]

@Coathanger16 yes, I'm from the East Midlands, but was referring to the West Midlands only.

Is the East Miss also part of the Midlands Engine? I thought it was used to refer to Birmingham/West Mids only?

 

[Dobbo]

Good point. I think a lot of credit was also due to Sir Howard Bernstein in that regard. Personally, I didn't think it helpful of Rotheram to criticise Osborne the way he did in a tv interview the other day. Apologies if I'm repeating myself, but isn't it better to put party politics aside and rather useful to have a former Chancellor and now Editor of the London Evening Standard onside?

Yes - how could I forget Howard Bernstein.

George Osborne is well onside. Helps that it's a useful tool to prod May with as well!!

Frankly, it's a shame he is out of politics. He was not afraid to made unpopular decisions which were obviously necessary to protect the UK as a whole.

 

[Coathanger16]

@Coathanger16 yes, I'm from the East Midlands, but was referring to the West Midlands only.

Is the East Miss also part of the Midlands Engine? I thought it was used to refer to Birmingham/West Mids only?

I honestly don't know. The Midlands Engine is barely mentioned these days. Birmingham isn't going to get as much attention or funding as if it went forward with the East Mids, so I don't know why they shouldn't be grouped together. The East Mids is as much a part of the Midlands as Birmingham (& the West Mids) are.

 

[Land23R]

MAG are quite vocal about the need for HS3/NPR - principally because it expands the surface area catchment of MAN. They signed the recent letter, and tweeted about it (see below). View attachment 5745

Fair enough. I hadn't heard them mentioned as attending the summit.

 

[Yawner]

View attachment 5746

 

[Aviador]

Manchester Airport advises passengers of new Terminal Two drop off location
As part of Manchester Airport’s £1bn Transformation Programme (MAN-TP), the drop off location at Terminal Two will be changing from tomorrow (19th October).

Instead of using the ramp at the front of the building, from 00:01 passengers are being asked to drop off at the ground level in a specially commissioned forecourt.

Works began this summer on the £1bn MAN-TP, which will deliver a world-class customer experience and state of the art facilities at the UK’s third biggest airport.

Through 2019/20, passengers will see major changes to the airport, with Terminal Two growing by 160% and offering the latest technological advances in travel, and a wealth of new retail and food and beverage outlets.

A Manchester Airport spokesman said: “As we look to transform Manchester Airport through our £1bn development, we have made some changes to the drop off area at Terminal Two.

“From 19th October we are asking customers to drop off at the ground level, before using lifts to access the departure level. Drop off remains free of charge.

“We want all passengers to have a smooth and stress-free experience, so we will have marshals and traffic signs in place to help passengers find their way. We have also been posting helpful information on social media to pre-warn people.”

For further information on the transformation programme, passengers can log onto a dedicated website where maps of the new location can be found. www.mantp.co.uk

 

[David_itl]

No more Arriva Trains at the airport from October 2018 as they're giving up.

"North Shropshire MP Owen Paterson said: “We need newer, larger, faster, cleaner and more reliable trains. There is just not enough room on these trains at the moment..... We must insist that the new franchise includes a half-hourly service from Shrewsbury to Birmingham Airport and Shrewsbury to Manchester Airport.”

https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/2017/11/03/trains-not-good-enough-say-mps/

 

[Aviador]

£290m airport relief road could be hit by collapse of construction giant Carillion

Full story:
http://www.alderleyedge.com/news/ar...t-by-collapse-of-construction-giant-carillion

 

[Aceshigh]

www.placenorthwest.co.uk/news/tfgm-submits-funding-bid-for-metrolink-expansion/amp/

The train due to arrive on platform 2 may arrive in circa 15 years "if" we are lucky!

 

[1-11days]

Good to see TfGM putting in the application. Looking at the longer term I wonder if the metro western loop would meet the capacity required to move passengers from HS2 to the two terminals give the size and frequency of trams versus the number of passengers a large high speed train could set down? Apologies if this is straying too much into the world of rail?!

 

[David_itl]

News of amended bus services to the airport... we know the 200 to the runway viewing park is being eliminated from April but i've found this out.. the current 288 service from Altrincham to the Airport is being planned to have changes done to it.. "The route of this service is amended to run via Airport City to provide access to employment at this new development. To partially replace service 200 a limited number of weekend journeys will run via Runway Visitor Park." Meant to be from 8th April

In addition, route 130 which is operated by D and G buses between Maccelsfield and Handforth Dean will be amended to being between Macclesfield and the Airport from 1st April
Mon-Fri = 0735, 0820 then hourly around 10 to the hour from 9.50 until 16.45
Sat = 0817 (from Alderley Edge) then hourly from 0850 to 1550

Reverse journeys...
Mon-Fri 0845 and every hour until 1750
Sat = 0845 and every hour until 1645

No Sunday trips

 

[Aceshigh]

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/bu...rns-tfl/10028159.article#.WofeS8OXFg8.twitter

I've put this in here as this IS "ANOTHER light in a tunnel with an express behind it" and one which may affect Manchester Airport in respect of expansion of trains into T2.

To get rw3 Heathrow needs to ensure 50% of journeys to the airport are made by public transport, hence the enormity of the taxpayer spend on the M25 and of course rail. TFL have produced data that suggest the Southern and western rail lines will need expansion to the airport to make that happen. Given network rail is more "relaxed"about expansion in the SE than the NW there is a real possibility that funds that might have been earmarked for the SW MIDLANDS Yorkshire and the N West etc will once again pour into the SE.

Heathrow and the Government appear tight lipped. Either they are saying nothing .......or dont have a clue!