The Continuing Saga of Brexit...

[Aviador]

A completely non scientific poll.

Nobody including the administrator and moderator team can see what people have voted.

I've set it up so you can change your mind nearer to the big day.

#takepart #Europe #poll

 

[Aviador]

I find the biggest problem many people have with Europe is they disagree with the influx of migrants into the UK which is a fair comment.

The last time I visited London I found it difficult to see anybody who I thought was probably English or British. Will coming out of the EEC change anything? I would say it is extremely difficult to tell because many of the migrants don't look like they are necessarily from Europe. Prior to the UK joining the EEC in 1973 there were still very many migrants coming to the UK, especially from non European countries.

From my experience I would say the vast majority of people do not have a particular problem with immigration, they just find the scale of immigration far greater than what they think the country can cope with. Huge numbers of people arriving from wherever in the world will cause a strain on our infrastructure such as housing, policing, hospitals and everything else.

In my days of working at LBA, there were large numbers of Europeans from Poland and other Eastern European countries. My personal experience working with these people are they speak exceptionally good English and they are extremely hard working. They mix well with the local community. We do on the other hand have groups of people coming to the UK from places like Morocco, Iran, Iraq and other Asian and African countries. I am not convinced these people necessarily want to mix with us like our European counterparts do.

Could national laws be altered to reduce the intake of immigrants without coming out of the EEC or should we work with our European neighbours to make new European laws to combat illegal non-European migration?

For me the biggest problem is the fear of the unknown. All the politicians will argue their case for staying in Europe or for coming out. Nobody actually really knows. In 1973 when the UK entered the EEC the UK was in a deep recession. It's extremely difficult to say whether it would have been better or worse now had we not joined the EEC. The UK is very much part of the wider global economy and if something goes belly up in the US or China, the UK tends to know about it fairly soon afterwards.

Incidentally if the English language is anything to go by we have always had a good mix in our background.

Source: Wikipedia

One things for sure, we will still be fighting the Germans for the sunbeds in Spain whatever the final result is!

 

[TheLocalYokel]

English is a constantly evolving language and has always taken words, expressions, phrases from other languages, sometimes anglicising them, sometimes retaining the original language, eg bete noire (sorry about the lack of a circumflex).

As to the In or Out debate, many people seem worried about the power that non-UK courts have to overrule our own courts.

The European Court of Justice is the final arbiter for all EU laws with our own Supreme Court subservient. The European Court of Human Rights has Europe-wide jurisdiction on human rights issues in any of the states that have signed up to be bound by it (including all countries in the EU), and the European Court of Justice in practice regards the European Court of Human Rights case law as if it was part of the EU justice system.

We've all read of some what appear to be crazy decisions handed down the European Court of Human Rights with which the UK (and other European countries where cases have affected them) has been forced to comply.

I heard Sir Richard Branson on one of the national tv news programmes at teatime passionately arguing the case for the UK to remain in the EU, during which he mentioned the CEOs of easyJet and Ryanair who have both expressed fears that their airlines will be severely adversely affected if the UK finds itself outside the EU. In truth, nobody really knows what effect leaving the EU would have on the UK. It won't happen overnight anyway with negotiations expected to take at least a couple of years if the vote is to leave.

 

[Brum X]

The United Kingdom should stay in the EU.

Thats all im gonna say on the subject and i hope many more vote YES in June 2016 :smile:

 

[Aviador]

Independant.co.uk

No questioning what Ryanair's Mr O'Leary thinks on the matter.

Mr O'Leary claims staying in Europe is...

• Better for Tourism
  
• Better for UK Growth
  
• Better for UK Jobs
  
• Better for UK Holidaymakers
  
• Better for UK Visitors

#betterineurope #stayin

 

[Ray Finkle]

To be totally honest I haven't got a clue ardon:

 

[TheLocalYokel]

If the referendum determines that the UK will leave the EU then it will be difficult to prevent another independence vote in Scotland if there is evidence that there is a strong feeling there that Scotland should remain in the EU.

I believe that it is inevitable that the UK will eventually break up. Britain had the biggest empire that the world has ever seen but within half a century it had gone.

With the present trend of devolving more and more powers to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland I believe that it hastening the eventual dismantling of the UK itself. To me it's a natural progression.

I'm not giving a time scale and I won't be around to see it but I would not be surprised if my grandchildren are still alive to see independent nation states in England, Wales and Scotland. Ireland is more complicated for all the reasons of which we are aware and it would be up to the Irish people to decide how that island went forward.

 

[User001]

I think the UK should stay in the EU.

Personally I don't think the average joe voter knows enough about the intricacies of the U.K.-EU relationship, how it affects trade, tourism, money and everything else to be qualified to make that decision.

Is the EU-UK deal perfect? No. Would the UK be perfect out of the EU! Very unlikely.

Rather stick to what we know to be honest, so, I'm voting yes to the EU.

 

[Aviador]

I think the UK should stay in the EU.

Personally I don't think the average joe voter knows enough about the intricacies of the U.K.-EU relationship, how it affects trade, tourism, money and everything else to be qualified to make that decision.

Is the EU-UK deal perfect? No. Would the UK be perfect out of the EU! Very unlikely.

Rather stick to what we know to be honest, so, I'm voting yes to the EU.

Exactly my sentiments User001.

We know not everything about being in Europe is good for us but the European law makers are no different from our own. There are lots of things we can do to change things using our own laws without blaming the Europeans for everything.

My parents are in the leave camp. My mother says "but look at what the EU has done to the fishing industry". I said, what? Implement a quota system because the fishing stocks were decimated! My farther says "we were better off before we went into the EU". I say the UK was in recession during the year we voted to join.

Immigration is the main concern for many but the majority of people who are seeking to come to our shores are from Africa and the Middle East. The EU promotes freedom of movement of EU citizens. The EU is trying to reduce the number of migrants coming to the EU from the Middle East and Africa but the United Nations is saying their plans are iligal. So if it's iligal for the EU to stop it, it will be for the UK out of Europe.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Some people confuse the European Court of Justice with the European Court of Human Rights.

The European Court of Justice is the final arbiter on everything relating to European Union legislation and its judgements are binding on all member states. So even some of the concessions that PM Cameron thinks he has wrung from the EU could be overturned by the European Court of Justice if an aggrieved, say an immigrant denied benefits ordinarily available, makes a legal challenge.

In that sense Britain is not in charge of its own destiny as a 'foreign court' can overturn anything in Britain that is done or not done that results from European legislation.

The European Court of Human Rights has jurisdiction over all those European countries that have agreed to be bound by its findings and is not restricted to member states of the EU. It's this court that is responsible for what some see as perverse rulings when, for example, it rules against convicted terrorists being returned to their own countries on the grounds that their human rights would be contravened. Britain could still voluntarily subject itself to this court in or out of the EU.

I get the impression that many people who are thinking of voting to leave the EU would change their minds if it returned to what was originally envisaged when the UK joined - a common market between states. Even this is hedged in snags. Coupled with a common market is a need to introduce market-wide taxation legislation to ensure fair competition across all member countries and within those member countries (APD is a good example of how Britain cannot regulate this tax within its borders in a way that it might wish to).

Once taxation comes into the market-wide equation so do other matters and gradually we move towards what is in the course of happening - a European super state where individual nations are subsumed within it.

My heart says leave but my head is not as certain because the truth is, nobody - and I mean nobody - really knows what would be the effect if Britain did leave the EU. The proponents of the two camps issue spectacular predictions favouring their own points of view and condemn those of their opponents.

The easy thing is to believe that we should maintain the status quo as the devil you know is often thought to be better than the devil you don't, but that might not be the right thing to do in every situation.

I have to say that I am still a 'don't know', or perhaps a 'not sure' is more accurate, which is something I never thought I'd be in an election or referendum. I'm usually confident of the way I intend to vote on all issues.

 

[Ashley.S.]

Honestly, I'm in-between at the moment. As per usual, the in campaign are scare mongering, while the out campaign is making promises it might not be able to keep.

What I like about the EU:

• Free Movement
• The Investment that EU money brings to the South West & Unemployed (a lot of schemes down here have been funded by EU money, what's to say that leaving will guarantee these services and funding?)

What I don't like about the EU:

• Fisherman are struggling to make ends-meat due to the restrictions placed by the EU
• The fact that state benefits end up going abroad sometimes. The money should be used to help those people in need here, not those who are elsewhere in the EU
• The fact that unelected bureaucrats get a say in what should and shouldn't be law. MEPs then just get a chance to finalise these plans (I could say something similar in regards to the house of lords)
• The fact that the EU court can overrule the UK high court

I've got borderline thoughts on immigration, because I think no matter if we are in or out of the EU, it won't make too much difference, other than how the boarders are policed, etc.

 

[Aviador]

Richard Branson claims EasyJet and Ryanair are 's****ing themselves' over Brexit because they fear losing access to European airspace and airports

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...European-airspace-airports.html#ixzz44t6qhtn4

#betterineurope

 

[Brum X]

I will be voting for the UK to remain in the EU.

For all my life i have only lived in the EU and my life is good. I do not know how my life would change if we were to leave the EU, it could be better or it could be worse. However im cool with the way it is so why would i want to put at risk what i have at present.

Over the next few months in between logging onto Forums4Airports i will be campaigning for Birmingham/Britain to stay in Europe.

The EU has many problems but what it doesnt need right now is Britain coming along and slapping it in the face. We need to work together and put these things right. I am proud to be British but i want to be European too.

It could be worse, we could live in the USA and soon to have Donald Trump as our leader, c.mon the EU isnt that bad after all.

Also what the OUT campaign does not address when they are so in love with being British, that they will be the cause of the destruction of the United Kingdom of Great Britain. Scotland is expected to vote IN, however if England was to vote OUT, how on earth will the UK survive. Believe me if we vote OUT this will be the start of the end and England/Wales will be on our own. This just isnt right and i wont let it happen.

VOTE IN #betterineurope #votein

http://www.strongerin.co.uk/birmingham_we_are_part_of_europe

 

[TheLocalYokel]

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Airbus...employees-EU/story-29048037-detail/story.html

Airbus is putting the frighteners on its UK staff if we leave the EU. It's not saying they would pull out of the UK but further investment might be limited.

Branson is concerned that pulling out of the EU could lead to the break-up of the UK. It might but I believe that a more likely catalyst is the continuing devolution of powers to the other countries in the UK with England, by far the largest constituent, left to be governed by elected representatives from all across the UK.

Scotland was given the chance to vote to leave the UK. So why not give the voters in the other parts of the UK the chance to have a similar vote? I'm increasingly coming to the view that an independent England would best suit the interests of those living in England.

England could still have close relationships with Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland as the UK currently does with the Republic of Ireland.

Maybe this might form the subject of a future poll.

 

[Ashley.S.]

As you guys know, I'm kinda inbetween main jobs right now. I'm currently on a course provided by the Job Centre and delivered by a company called Lizard Pathways. One problem though: their funding is provided by the European Social fund.

If we left the EU, then that funding would disappear and my tutor would probably be out of a job. If we left the EU, what's to say that the company would get direct funding in-replacement for loss of EU funds? Highly unlikely I'd say, therefore a vote to stay in a reformed EU would be best for everyone...right???

 

[TheLocalYokel]

But where does that money come from Ashley? From the 'Big Three' mainly - the UK, Germany and France.

The EU has no money of its own, only the money that its constituent states contribute. The UK put in a net sum of over £14 billion in 2014 and we actually get back less than 50 pence for every pound we contribute. The rest of it is swallowed up in helping so-called poorer member states and in the multi billion pound annual cost of administering the EU.

If we weren't in the EU we'd keep that money to spend entirely within the UK and would be in a position to fund your courses anyway. Well, we might not keep all of it because the UK's Overseas Aid Budget seems to be growing every year but that's another argument and we fund that in or out of the EU.

If I sound like a supporter of the Out campaign that's understandable. As I said in an earlier post, I'm still getting splinters in my backside from that wooden fence because despite my heart telling me we should leave my head hasn't made up its mind.

 

[Aviador]

I take your point TheLocalYokel but I still feel we're better off in than out.

Any sort of club membership comes with it's own membership fee. I do kind of feel that the big three are propping up the rest of Europe to some extent but this has to be better than the turmoil in Europe after a UK exit which surely wouldn't be good for the UK either.

As a nation we pay £13bn to Europe. That sounds like an immense amount of money but these days it isn't really. The UK Houses of Parliament needs some serious work doing to it to keep it standing. The work is expected to cost in the region of £5.7bn so it puts the £13bn into perspective.

Much of the problems we are seeing here at the moment are caused by global issues. War & political problems in the Middle East and North Africa and global financial woes that are restraining our economy. Much of the migration we are seeing is caused by global issues so I don't see how coming out of the EU will make a great deal of difference.

I also believe only the select few will see any benefit from the money we pay into the EU staying in the UK in the event of the UK coming out of the EU. None of the main political parties are likely to ever go on a spending spree again, so the money will just disappear into the system.

#betterineurope #stayin #takepart #poll

 

[TheLocalYokel]

It's usually more comfortable to stay with the devil you know than go with the devil you don't know in most situations in life. If the EU had remained solely as a market place, which is what those of us who were around when the UK voted to join were asked to vote for (or not), then I doubt that many of the current 'Outers' would be keen to leave.

Purely as a market place it's difficult to argue against it, although even with just a market there are ancillary regulations brought in to ensure fair competition between the member countries and within those countries. Then there has to be a legal body to ensure that the regulations are being applied evenly and fairly so we then have the European Court of Justice. Even then so long as the regulations and European Court merely related to the trade within the common market it would probably be acceptable to many of those who are outers or at least doubters about staying in.

But we've gone far beyond that with with moves for a federal United States of Europe. We're already some way down that path and that is the thing that worries me.

The agreements that the PM says he has negotiated to mollify some of Britain's concerns can be overturned by the European Court of Justice.

Incidentally, Mrs Yokel is firmly in the 'Stay In' camp so if I do decide to vote to leave (those splinters are becoming painful so I should be thinking seriously of climbing down from that fence on one side or the other) we'd have a neutral voting trip to the polling station but we will still vote.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

I wonder if the US President’s remarks changed anyone’s mind about remaining in or leaving the EU. Many people were put out because (in their view) he stuck his nose into a major UK domestic matter when a similar attempt by a senior British politician to influence a major US domestic issue would almost certainly be met with universal condemnation and outrage throughout the USA.

The President justified his intervention on the grounds that Britain’s membership of the EU is vital to the USA.

At least he was honest when he pulled no punches about saying that the USA is prepared to have a special relationship with the UK so long as the UK does what the USA tells it to do, although we’ve known that for many, many years.

I can still find nothing conclusive that sways me one or the other in this debate. So far as I can see no-one, on either side, can possibly have an inkling on whether the UK will be better off or worse off in ten or 20 years’ time within the EU or without it. I hear and read a continuous train of ‘facts’, and prophesies and dire warnings and radiant promises that the respective proponents say will result from either staying in or leaving but they are all no more than guesswork.

If the vote leads to a ‘remain in’ decision I hope that it is a close call. I say this because I believe that the UK will carry more influence going forward as it tries to steer the EU away from the federal path that some major members want, and back towards a market place which was the original concept, if it can be seen that the country is not overwhelmingly wed to the idea of EU membership.

 

[Aviador]

George Osborne joins Stansted Airport and Ryanair bosses to back EU remain vote

George Osborne, Vince Cable and Ed Balls at Stansted Airport

Stansted Airport hosted the Chancellor of the Exchequer George Osborne on May 16 th as a budget airline launched its new European training centre.

Ryanair's project will create more than 1,000 new jobs for pilots, cabin crew, and engineers in 2016, more than 450 of which will be located at Ryanair's 13 UK airport bases.

Welcoming the Chancellor of the Exchequer , along with Lib Dem Vince Cable and Labour's Ed Balls to back the Britain Stronger in Europe referendum campaign, Ryanair's CEO Michael O'Leary, said: "We are pleased to welcome Chancellor Osborne to open our new European Training Centre which now includes four flight simulators, a full aircraft interior for cabin crew training, and an industry leading full scale engineering training aircraft.

"It is this type of large-scale foreign inward investment that is helping to drive the UK economy and job creation.

"It is exactly this type of investment that will be lost to other competitor EU members if the UK votes to leave the European Union.

Read more: http://www.essexchronicle.co.uk/Geo...tory-29278576-detail/story.html#ixzz49VBaqmd1