Northern Powerhouse HS2/3

jfy1999

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It needs unBritish thinking. Railways are shut for periods of severe weather or religious holidays so something like a month of alternate rail replacement services so that engineers can have uninterrupted time to do a renewal programme on key lines for a future better service. Relying on Victorian infrastructure is a job for UNESCO, Britain today needs a new railway network to complement the vanity projects.
I doubt our roads would have the capacity for the extra traffic generated by a complete closure of, say, the West Coast Mainline from London to Birmingham.
 

Carl0927

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What these two articles were talking about is travel between cities and town in the North of England , which is generally slow and overcrowded, nothing to do with London at all.
 

jfy1999

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I understand the West Coast mainline was upgraded in recent years and was managed adequately. All to allow Pendolino to hit top speed and tilt normally.
Indeed, but it remained operational during the upgrade, so it took 10 years to finish.

The issues I mentioned in my previous posts apply to the Transpennine railway, which is overdue for electrification, but there are far fewer alternative road and rail routes between the northern cities.

The traffic on the M62 is often heavy, and new NPR lines would help relieve the problem, but now it looks like electrification on the existing railway will happen first. judging by the West Coast upgrade, it looks like a choice between the work being drawn out over as much as 10 years to minimise disruption, or a much larger amount of disruption in a shorter time which would cause more people to use the M62.
 

Carl0927

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In my opinion HS3 is more important than HS2. Just how I feel about it, getting across from east to west is far more difficult and slow in the north than getting to London . I know there is the argument about more capacity needed, but that may have altered dramatically for business passengers since lock downs and Zoom has been discovered. I can get to London now in 2 hours, thats fine for me to be honest. But getting to Leeds or Newcastle or Sheffield, thats a drag of a journey from Liverpool and Cheshire.
 

Coathanger16

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In my opinion HS3 is more important than HS2. Just how I feel about it, getting across from east to west is far more difficult and slow in the north than getting to London . I know there is the argument about more capacity needed, but that may have altered dramatically for business passengers since lock downs and Zoom has been discovered. I can get to London now in 2 hours, thats fine for me to be honest. But getting to Leeds or Newcastle or Sheffield, thats a drag of a journey from Liverpool and Cheshire.

This is where HS2 has really been sold badly - its not just about getting to London quicker.

Birmingham to Leeds for instance will fall from taking almost 2 hours now to 50 minutes with HS2 - nothing to do with London. Likewise the journey time between Birmingham and Manchester will be halved.

I'd say HS2 "should" benefit Birmingham more than London tbh. HS2 would put Birmingham within 2 hours rail of basically every English city outside the South West (which should really be served by a future HS4 line).

And thats just the benefits from the HS2 line itself.

The plan is for the majority of intercity services to be moved onto the HS2 network. That then frees up a massive amount of capacity on the existing network for more local trains.

Some of the smaller stations around me (Midlands) that say only see 1 or 2 trains per hour into Birmingham now could see that increased easily to 4 tph at least. That would allow for a proper shift change in getting more people to commute by public transport.

And no I don't think Covid will mean less people working in offices - an office scheme in central Birmingham has been increased in size since the pandemic hit. Hardly indicative of everyone working from home 24/7 in the future.

By all means HS3 is also important, but what it should be doing is making use of the infrastructure that HS2 is building. For instance building a spur line from HS2 into Liverpool would not only allow for faster journey times from Liverpool to London & Birmingham, but it could also be then used as part of HS3 to decrease journey times between Liverpool, Manchester Airport and Manchester.

HS3 should build on HS2, so if you were to build it before HS2, you'd only have half a network.
 

Carl0927

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From my local station, I can get to Birmingham in 1.15 mins, personally I think thats pretty good already. I understood the HS2 station in Birmingham will not be New Street, so there wont be any onward connections available.

The latest with respect to Liverpool is Grant Shapps suggest now they wont build a new spur, to cut costs its suggested using an old coal line to Warrington, this is not a HS line. There are local government concerns about this already in particular capacity for freight from Liverpool Docks. This line is what is being suggested as an HS2/3 link. Now if im going east its going the right direction, but if im going south, ie Birmingham or London, the existing line is already travelling in the most logical route.
 

Coathanger16

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From my local station, I can get to Birmingham in 1.15 mins, personally I think thats pretty good already. I understood the HS2 station in Birmingham will not be New Street, so there wont be any onward connections available.

The station will be at Curzon Street which is literally right next door to Moor Street Station - think Kings Cross St Pancras. There's plans to build a chord which would allow suburban trains from south Birmingham to terminate at Moor Street as well as allowing cross country trains from the South West to call at Moor Street rather than New Street.

Even then, the walk from Curzon St to New Street is comparable to the walk between Euston and St Pancras.

The latest with respect to Liverpool is Grant Shapps suggest now they wont build a new spur, to cut costs its suggested using an old coal line to Warrington, this is not a HS line. There are local government concerns about this already in particular capacity for freight from Liverpool Docks. This line is what is being suggested as an HS2/3 link. Now if im going east its going the right direction, but if im going south, ie Birmingham or London, the existing line is already travelling in the most logical route.

I don't know much about the area, but I did notice there are already two lines between Liverpool and Manchester, both terminate at Lime Street, one terminates at Manchester Piccadilly, the other at Manchester Victoria.

I ask this not in a dismissive way but out of genuine curiosity - is another line needed?

Also the fastest time currently between the two cities is 38 minutes - what's the target?

My point being if the target is say 30 minutes between the two, this could probably be achieved on one of the existing lines through electrification and say having 1 train per hour be a non-stop service with to intermediate stops.

If a sub 30 minutes journey is the target, then no amount of upgrades would achieve that I don't think, and an entirely new, purpose built high speed line would be needed.
 

Carl0927

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The station will be at Curzon Street which is literally right next door to Moor Street Station - think Kings Cross St Pancras. There's plans to build a chord which would allow suburban trains from south Birmingham to terminate at Moor Street as well as allowing cross country trains from the South West to call at Moor Street rather than New Street.

Even then, the walk from Curzon St to New Street is comparable to the walk between Euston and St Pancras.



I don't know much about the area, but I did notice there are already two lines between Liverpool and Manchester, both terminate at Lime Street, one terminates at Manchester Piccadilly, the other at Manchester Victoria.

I ask this not in a dismissive way but out of genuine curiosity - is another line needed?

Also the fastest time currently between the two cities is 38 minutes - what's the target?

My point being if the target is say 30 minutes between the two, this could probably be achieved on one of the existing lines through electrification and say having 1 train per hour be a non-stop service with to intermediate stops.

If a sub 30 minutes journey is the target, then no amount of upgrades would achieve that I don't think, and an entirely new, purpose built high speed line would be needed.

Yes there are two lines serving different towns en route, one is electric to Victoria, one is Diesel serving Piccadilly ( this is probably the busiest of the two ) but they are both extremely busy as regular passengers will testify. As I understand it there is very little capacity left on both routes, so it is needed. It isnt just about getting to Manchester however, its also about progressing to Leeds / Sheffield / Hull etc, all diesel , slow and overcrowded. So yes some sort of Northern Powerhouse Rail is very much needed if the cities of the north are going to be able to flourish as the government ' say' they want them to.
 

JENNYJET

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Not wishing to lower the level of debate but Redditch trains call at New St. before continuing to Litchfield City, part of the cross city service, so as a disabled person of limited mobility, Curzon St. would be a major challenge without a link between the two stations. Would a Metro link be in the plans?
 

Coathanger16

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Not wishing to lower the level of debate but Redditch trains call at New St. before continuing to Litchfield City, part of the cross city service, so as a disabled person of limited mobility, Curzon St. would be a major challenge without a link between the two stations. Would a Metro link be in the plans?
Ultimately there will be a metro (tram) link between New Street and Curzon Street: (Grand Central to New Canal Street)
1613765178051.png
(Sorry for hi-jacking the Northern Powerhouse thread with Midlands content :))
 

Coathanger16

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Yes there are two lines serving different towns en route, one is electric to Victoria, one is Diesel serving Piccadilly ( this is probably the busiest of the two ) but they are both extremely busy as regular passengers will testify. As I understand it there is very little capacity left on both routes, so it is needed. It isnt just about getting to Manchester however, its also about progressing to Leeds / Sheffield / Hull etc, all diesel , slow and overcrowded. So yes some sort of Northern Powerhouse Rail is very much needed if the cities of the north are going to be able to flourish as the government ' say' they want them to.

The most logical plan (to me at least) would be to build a new high speed spur from Liverpool to the HS2 line south of MAN airport and use the HS2 line from there into Manchester Piccadilly.

I'm sure it'd then be technically possible to have HS2 split into terminating platforms at Piccadilly for the HS2 services and have through platforms underground for HS3 services onto Leeds/Sheffield/etc - something I believe has been suggested.
 

Carl0927

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The most logical plan (to me at least) would be to build a new high speed spur from Liverpool to the HS2 line south of MAN airport and use the HS2 line from there into Manchester Piccadilly.

I'm sure it'd then be technically possible to have HS2 split into terminating platforms at Piccadilly for the HS2 services and have through platforms underground for HS3 services onto Leeds/Sheffield/etc - something I believe has been suggested.

Well there are all sorts of ideas, I think one of the problems decisions have been made in London, rather than involving the cities and towns concerns. It is also political which often trumps logic. Manchester Piccadilly for example is for the most part a terminus , where as Victoria is a through station.
 

JENNYJET

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I agree. I did not know about the Manchester stations and their respective purpose making local knowledge so important and I hope Andy Burnham is making the necessary noise at Whitehall.
 
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