Domestic UK Air Travel

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What is the future for UK domestic air travel ? We are not a big country and yet getting around by any form of transportation can prove taxing to say the least ! Our roads are clogged ( don't even mention pot-holes ! ) . Train travel , in my opinion its worse since BR days , more expensive , more packed with shorter trains. It's ok to and from the capital in general for most big towns and cities, but cross country, that's very different, with still scant investment, outside London and SE for getting around.

And what of domestic air routes, over the years these seemed to have diminished, is that because its cheaper, faster and easier by surface transport ? Hardly , we don't have the array of domestic airlines anymore crisscrossing the country and those we do have often struggle to do well ( flybe , eastern ) . The trunk routes to LHR / LGW have reduced or stopped all together, partly because of plenty of alternative options from big airports like Manchester and Birmingham, and partly because of slot problems at Heathrow.

Domestic Air Travel needs to be fast if you are delayed just getting to the airport because of traffic or slow trains , or security delays at airports, it makes the short hop by air not attractive. So what's the future ?!

 

I know some who wouldn't use a bus if it was free; in fact, some won't even apply for pensioners' bus passes because they value the independenc of driving their car.

My dad is like that! He can't stand busses he'd rather walk and he won't use trains either. The only time i've used a train recently was coming back from my sisters in Leeds and i did actually enjoy it, even the busy Horsforth to Leeds and Leeds to Manchester Piccadily parts. The Arriva Wales from Manchester to Newport was very relaxing, from Newport to Cardiff it got really crowded and i've read a lot horror stories about the Valley Lines. The journey with the bus from Cardiff did take me around 6 hours from start to finish which a flight would've cut off at least 2 hours. My sister uses trains a lot more than me and finds them the most conveinient way to travel especially to London.

 

My dad is like that! He can't stand busses he'd rather walk and he won't use trains either. The only time i've used a train recently was coming back from my sisters in Leeds and i did actually enjoy it, even the busy Horsforth to Leeds and Leeds to Manchester Piccadily parts. The Arriva Wales from Manchester to Newport was very relaxing, from Newport to Cardiff it got really crowded and i've read a lot horror stories about the Valley Lines. The journey with the bus from Cardiff did take me around 6 hours from start to finish which a flight would've cut off at least 2 hours. My sister uses trains a lot more than me and finds them the most conveinient way to travel especially to London.

We use the trains for holidays and leisure travel - in the UK and Ireland, and in mainland Europe - and I use my bus pass a lot to get out into the countryside for walks. I did a 10-mile walk today in that way.

In recent years the only UK journeys I've made that might have been viable by air had there been a route was Bristol-Leeds and Manchester-Bristol. Even so the frequency by train (every hour on both routes) would probably have still won the day. I like train travel anyway, so long as the carriages are not overcrowded. Another of our regular train routes, Bristol-Paddington (where the trains are frequently very overcrowded), has never had and almost certainly never will have any air competition as the journey time by rail is too short.

Bristol to Glasgow and Edinburgh, although there are hourly trains on both routes, is really too long a journey so we fly BRS to GLA or EDI at least once most years.

 

Does anybody actually think air alternatives have got any better in the last 20 years or so?

Personally I don't think they have. The railways have seen significant investment, but for the most part this has been spent on maintaining the track and improving the railway station infrastructure, not so much on improving journey times or rolling stock. The cost of rail travel has continued to rise significantly above the rate of inflation making it more and more expensive and unaffordable for many people.



Motorways have improved in the last two decades but the number of cars on the roads have also increased dramatically so in most cases the drive times will be significantly lower than what they were 20 years ago.

The UK has always not put transport as a high priority, in my opinion .

 

My dad is like that! He can't stand busses he'd rather walk and he won't use trains either. The only time i've used a train recently was coming back from my sisters in Leeds and i did actually enjoy it, even the busy Horsforth to Leeds and Leeds to Manchester Piccadily parts. The Arriva Wales from Manchester to Newport was very relaxing, from Newport to Cardiff it got really crowded and i've read a lot horror stories about the Valley Lines. The journey with the bus from Cardiff did take me around 6 hours from start to finish which a flight would've cut off at least 2 hours. My sister uses trains a lot more than me and finds them the most conveinient way to travel especially to London.

I don't use the valley lines but they are horrendous from what collegues in work tell me. Severe issues with the rail netwok in South Wales but that's another story. Hopefully the new operator will turn it around with the new trains on order/2nd hand London underground trains.

On my own train travels around South Wales I have had to stand in the toilet due to it being absolutely rammed and also having to stand from Just past Newport to Swindon.

With regards to the Manchester Train Jerry on the way up I believe Swansea to Newport it's rammed. After Newport it empties out.

 

Does anybody actually think air alternatives have got any better in the last 20 years or so?

Personally I don't think they have. The railways have seen significant investment, but for the most part this has been spent on maintaining the track and improving the railway station infrastructure, not so much on improving journey times or rolling stock. The cost of rail travel has continued to rise significantly above the rate of inflation making it more and more expensive and unaffordable for many people.


Motorways have improved in the last two decades but the number of cars on the roads have also increased dramatically so in most cases the drive times will be significantly lower than what they were 20 years ago.

an example I'm thinking of is Gill Air NCL-MAN, that route has long gone, in it day was maybe 3 or 4 per day. So has the road or rail got so much better it saw off the air service, I don't think so. Plus the airport transit is much slower now too.

 

I don't use the valley lines but they are horrendous from what collegues in work tell me. Severe issues with the rail netwok in South Wales but that's another story. Hopefully the new operator will turn it around with the new trains on order/2nd hand London underground trains.

On my own train travels around South Wales I have had to stand in the toilet due to it being absolutely rammed and also having to stand from Just past Newport to Swindon.

With regards to the Manchester Train Jerry on the way up I believe Swansea to Newport it's rammed. After Newport it empties out.

I believe Liverpool will be reconnected with South Wales once the Halton Curve is reopened fully at end of year.

 

There's the problem, too many car journeys and some journeys totally unnecessary or public transport could have been used.

 

Just re-read this thread again many of the issues about Flybe's troubles seem to be mentioned above .....ie airport congestion for the domestic traveller by air.

 

Now would be a good time for airports to look at prioritising domestic passengers through security.

I'm sure that if checkin could, as a result of this be reduced to a guaranteed 30-40 minutes then business travellers could once again be persuaded of the potential advantages of flying.

 

Maybe if all airports allowed their domestic passengers to use the fast track lane through security that might be a start.

 

With the security checks in place i don't see how they can make anything faster even with fast track in place.
With rail and road getting faster you have to wonder if airlines like Flybe will in the future just concentrate on southern Britain to Scotland routes and Southern Britain to the North East routes and of course over the water as well.

 

Maybe if all airports allowed their domestic passengers to use the fast track lane through security that might be a start.

fast track is paid for usually by the airline concerned for each passenger that uses it. not sure who who be paying for it here? I can't imagine BE would want to given their current state.

With the security checks in place i don't see how they can make anything faster even with fast track in place.

it definitely is in most cases at most airports.

 

Very true the busesround my area are appaling and of no use to me at all, the rail network is good but
the strikes by Northern are making life at weekend impossible so guess waht it has to be car or walk

 

Fast tracking passengers is just one example and it does help but do airlines have to pay extra for their passengers to use it? At many airports passengers are also lead through shops immediately after security before they can reach the gate areas. For interlining passengers and those going on holiday this is fine but for business passengers this acts as another hurdle to cross when they just want to get to the aircraft and get going.

 

I understand that most airlines provide fast-tracking where it exists for premium-class customers which presumably the airline does pay for (although no doubt it's calculated as part of the ticket fare) but there is also an option at many airports for passengers to pay an additional fee at the airport for fast-tracking whatever class of travel they are using.

I thought that the separate fast-tracking payments were one of the ancillary revenue streams that many regional airports rely on to help with turnover and profits. It's controversial with some people as it can be seen as airports making money from the threat of terrorism.

 

Fast tracking passengers is just one example and it does help but do airlines have to pay extra for their passengers to use it?

Yes they do if the passenger is using it based on cabin or status. Sometimes it is bundled as art of the agreement with the airline when they launch from a new airport.

 

The other thing to consider about letting domestic passengers use the fast track at security is, depending on which airport and how many domestic passengers use it, how fast would fast track be with the extra passengers. Last year domestic passengers accounted for 10% of passengers at BHX. Add that many passengers to fast track security and I wouldn't be surprised if 'normal' security became faster than fast track which might also discourage airlines from offering "fast track" security for its premium passengers.

 

My suggestion about using fast track as part of the domestic air fare Is to try and speed up and improve the terminal transfer experience. If it takes too long to pass through a terminal for a domestic short flight it just makes it more unattractive and so less passengers use it and threatens the routes . I used to fly Manchester to Norwich , Exeter and Southampton for work reasons. I get the train these days , it's easier.

 

Looking back over the years I think airport used to refer to the Inclusive Tour holiday flights as being the "bread and butter" of the business providing airports with the much needed revenue to expand. Looking at it in hindsight I'd say it was always the scheduled business flights, or more importantly, scheduled domestic flights that were the real "bread and butter" of airport business. @jason1-11 reported on the Leeds forum that there is a 4 hour gap in flights today. There has been far too much emphasis on holiday flights to the med to maintain business and you have to question the long term sustainability of this at all UK regional airports.