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Route Development

Carl0927

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A facebook survey ( and I don't use it, so its what I've read elsewhere) of where people would like to fly to from Liverpool has appeared

The top five are :-

New York
Servile
London
Copenhagen/Munich (joint 4th)
Santorini

I don't think there is anything very scientific about it, as Rome is mentioned, which is an existing route !

I was quite surprised London was picked as number 3, this can only be for transferring onwards surely, very little point to fly to London otherwise.
 

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Aviador

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A facebook survey ( and I don't use it, so its what I've read elsewhere) of where people would like to fly to from Liverpool has appeared

The top five are :-

New York
Servile
London
Copenhagen/Munich (joint 4th)
Santorini

I was quite surprised London was picked as number 3, this can only be for transferring onwards surely, very little point to fly to London otherwise.
New York, Servile, London, Copenhagen, Munich and Santorini all seem possible target destinations from Liverpool. Do you think New York would do better as a charter rather than a scheduled service, in a similar way to how Jet2 operates? I say this because it's probably the most plausible way of getting a New York service. UK regional airports have struggled for years to get and sustain regular scheduled ops across the pond with only two or three exceptions.

Seville is a beautiful city and one I have visited some years ago. It's still developing it's tourist market so Liverpool should be able to tap into that market easily enough. I think Bristol and a couple of other regional airports now offer flights there so there's no reason Liverpool shouldn't be able to sustain regular flights to the city, maybe thrice weekly.

Copenhagen and Munich are both fantastic cities for weekend breaks in particular. Again with business, both are cities with huge business opportunities that would be great for Liverpool to tap into. Like most of the German cities, Munich has some fantastic beer festivals "Oktoberfest" and the Christmas German Market "Christkindlmarkt". As good as ours are, none are as good as the proper German markets.

As for Santorini, I've never been but I've heard it's a beautiful island and well worth visiting. Surely an airline like Air Blue should be able to pick that one up easy enough?
 

Carl0927

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All seem possible from Liverpool. Do you think New York would do better as a charter rather than a scheduled service, in a similar way to how Jet2 operates? I say this because it's probably the most plausible way of getting a New York service. UK regional airports have struggled for years to get and sustain regular scheduled ops across the pond with only two or three exceptions.

Seville is a beautiful city and one I have visited some years ago. It's still developing it's tourist market so Liverpool should be able to tap into that market easily enough. I think Bristol and a couple of other regional airports now offer flights there so there's no reason Liverpool shouldn't be able to sustain regular flights to the city, maybe thrice weekly.

Copenhagen and Munich are both fantastic cities for weekend breaks in particular. Again with business, both are cities with huge business opportunities that would be great for Liverpool to tap into. Like most of the German cities, Munich has some fantastic beer festivals "Oktoberfest" and the Christmas German Market "Christkindlmarkt". As good as ours are, none are as good as the proper German markets.

As for Santorini, I've never been but I've heard it's a beautiful island and well worth visiting. Surely an airline like Air Blue should be able to pick that one up easy enough?

I think a number of years ago Ryanair did Liverpool to Seville ( and Granada) and your right its a very beautiful city, ideal for a long weekend away, I see know reason why that would not be popular. I've always wanted to go to Santorini, its looks stunning, but i'm a bit put as a friend recently went and said the place was swamped by cruise ship passengers, he said you couldn't move !

Liverpool is only linked to Berlin, so to me any German cities would be useful, and Munich again in a popular destination with quite a lot going on. Copenhagen was to be launched by Ryanair, but after announcing it, it never happened for some reason !

I think New York is interesting, there are quite a few links between the two cities, with shipping, and The Beetles history. Now you have these smaller aircraft that can fly further a route link like this may be possible, but I get your point about a charter too, that might be a good way to begin.
 

Carl0927

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For me the most import route to re connect is Lisbon, Easyjet's moving it to MAN, and its probably Liverpool's busiest route. I hope Blue air are watching !
 

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For me the most import route to re connect is Lisbon, Easyjet's moving it to MAN, and its probably Liverpool's busiest route. I hope Blue air are watching !
Yes it's deeply frustrating especially as you say it appears to perform well from Liverpool.

All airports and airlines seem to carry out these route questionnaires asking people where they want to fly to next. You'd think they'd be able to work it out for themselves. People tend to always pick places like New York but in reality how many people actually go there? As an example the business community of Bristol said they needed a New York service but when Bristol Airport scooped Continental Airlines they were eventually given a "use it or lose it" ultimatum. Not too long after, the route ceased.

A general rule I have is if a route can support say two airlines from Manchester, a neighbouring airport should be able to support one as well. If only one airline is serving a route from Manchester, the chances are it wont work from one of the surrounding airports. This isn't a strict rule as there are other factors you need to consider. If one airline is carrying over 200,000 passengers annually from Manchester then obviously one of the surrounding airports has a case to claw back some of their lost passengers. The aviation industry is a dog eat dog business it's an uphill struggle for the smaller airports.

#wherenextliverpool
 

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As an example the business community of Bristol said they needed a New York service but when Bristol Airport scooped Continental Airlines they were eventually given a "use it or lose it" ultimatum. Not too long after, the route ceased.
That particular instance wasn't quite as straightforward. BRS got a daily Continental Newark route in May 2005 at the time the airline had no rights to use LHR. Within a couple of years CO gained LHR rights and promptly moved their Gatwick-Newark service to LHR. From then on the BRS route was always on borrowed time and with the recession intervening it was a surprise that it lasted as long as late 2010.

The BRS route was then effectively moved 100 miles or so along the M4 to become CO's fifth daily EWR service from LHR with the B757-200 retained as the aircraft type at LHR. CO gave a number of reasons for the BRS-EWR termination, one of which was poor take-up at full fare in the business-first cabin.

In reality, it was obvious to most people with an interest in the subject that it made little sense to operate a fifth daily rotation from a small airport 'down the road' from LHR (if CO had enjoyed LHR rights in 2005 they almost certainly would never have begun the BRS route which actually exceeded CO's publicly stated targets for the first couple of years pre-recession), especially when most West Country travellers regard LHR as the default airport for long haul travel with its relatively easy proximity and multitude of choices. So in those senses the parallel between BRS and LHR is perhaps not quite the same as that between LPL and MAN.
 

Carl0927

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Yes it's deeply frustrating especially as you say it appears to perform well from Liverpool.

All airports and airlines seem to carry out these route questionnaires asking people where they want to fly to next. You'd think they'd be able to work it out for themselves. People tend to always pick places like New York but in reality how many people actually go there? As an example the business community of Bristol said they needed a New York service but when Bristol Airport scooped Continental Airlines they were eventually given a "use it or lose it" ultimatum. Not too long after, the route ceased.

A general rule I have is if a route can support say two airlines from Manchester, a neighbouring airport should be able to support one as well. If only one airline is serving a route from Manchester, the chances are it wont work from one of the surrounding airports. This isn't a strict rule as there are other factors you need to consider. If one airline is carrying over 200,000 passengers annually from Manchester then obviously one of the surrounding airports has a case to claw back some of their lost passengers. The aviation industry is a dog eat dog business it's an uphill struggle for the smaller airports.

#wherenextliverpool

I believe the aircraft used on LPL-LiS is a Lisbon based machine, so I'm thinking that's going somewhere else, who knows . Perhaps a the route will reappear for 2019 , its long established so I imagine the airport management will be keen to see it reinstated asap
 

Carl0927

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Yes it's deeply frustrating especially as you say it appears to perform well from Liverpool.

All airports and airlines seem to carry out these route questionnaires asking people where they want to fly to next. You'd think they'd be able to work it out for themselves. People tend to always pick places like New York but in reality how many people actually go there? As an example the business community of Bristol said they needed a New York service but when Bristol Airport scooped Continental Airlines they were eventually given a "use it or lose it" ultimatum. Not too long after, the route ceased.

A general rule I have is if a route can support say two airlines from Manchester, a neighbouring airport should be able to support one as well. If only one airline is serving a route from Manchester, the chances are it wont work from one of the surrounding airports. This isn't a strict rule as there are other factors you need to consider. If one airline is carrying over 200,000 passengers annually from Manchester then obviously one of the surrounding airports has a case to claw back some of their lost passengers. The aviation industry is a dog eat dog business it's an uphill struggle for the smaller airports.

#wherenextliverpool
Of course I think it is a poor decision by Easyjet, not just because it leaves Liverpool without this route and so reducing choice for NW passengers, but by moving this to Manchester , you now have 3 operators there FR, TAP and EZY. Out of the 3 which are most well known in the UK ? TAP is more likely to feel the impact more, and TAP offers more in terms of onward transfers.
 

mullion

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Carl I don1t think it is quite as easy as that in that TAP serve a different market i:e much
more business/connecting to L/H Ryanair is a different kettle of fish and to a lesser extent
Easyjet which I know do carry a lot of business pax.
I have just had a look back through pax figures to LIS from LPL and MAN
over that last 4 years LPL approx 5000 a month maxed out at 5600 but now back
to 5000 as oppsed to MAN 11,000 in 2014 and 20,000 2018
Figures taken for May of each year
Just gone back another 4 years to 2010, LPL 4000 MAN 2000
Makes quite interesting reading as it looks as LPL has maxed out just about
 

Carl0927

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Carl I don1t think it is quite as easy as that in that TAP serve a different market i:e much
more business/connecting to L/H Ryanair is a different kettle of fish and to a lesser extent
Easyjet which I know do carry a lot of business pax.
I have just had a look back through pax figures to LIS from LPL and MAN
over that last 4 years LPL approx 5000 a month maxed out at 5600 but now back
to 5000 as oppsed to MAN 11,000 in 2014 and 20,000 2018
Figures taken for May of each year
Just gone back another 4 years to 2010, LPL 4000 MAN 2000
Makes quite interesting reading as it looks as LPL has maxed out just about
It will be maxed out because the planes are full so you can't get any more passenger on the planes provided, Liverpool isn't daily . where as TAP is normally two a day , daily , plus whatever Ryanair does. I fly TAP often, to my mind it is the most important carrier to have operating out of MAN to Lisbon. I just think it's a backward step loosing a Liverpool link for NW passenger and visiters from Lisbon to Liverpool,for the moment at least.
 
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mullion

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But they could have added extra flights and have not so they maybe able to that
they are at the limit and we don`t know what the yield is
 

Carl0927

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But they could have added extra flights and have not so they maybe able to that
they are at the limit and we don`t know what the yield is

We know the fares are generally high and we know the load factors is 90 % plus
 

Carl0927

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You seem to be on a vain as if there is no demand for a service from Liverpool to Lisbon. I don't know why all the signs are there very much is a healthy use of this route. The fares are generally high, indeed the last day of operation in October your looking at
£90 something quid one way and over £200 the other.....certainly not low cost, plus the load factors bears this out too. Not forgetting Lisbon is super popular these days. There really is no reason why this route should move, it is after all still covering the NW from Liverpool.

As for adding more flights that's down to aircraft availability and we don't know that.
 

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Of course I think it is a poor decision by Easyjet, not just because it leaves Liverpool without this route and so reducing choice for NW passengers, but by moving this to Manchester , you now have 3 operators there FR, TAP and EZY. Out of the 3 which are most well known in the UK ? TAP is more likely to feel the impact more, and TAP offers more in terms of onward transfers.
Surely with three operators serving Manchester it will ultimately lead to reduce yeilds for all three operators serving there. Who knows why airlines do this. As I've said before, as easy as it is to get to Manchester airport the same applies in reverse.
 

Carl0927

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Surely with three operators serving Manchester it will ultimately lead to reduce yeilds for all three operators serving there. Who knows why airlines do this. As I've said before, as easy as it is to get to Manchester airport the same applies in reverse.[
 

Carl0927

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I would have thought the same with respect to yields from Manchester with 3 operators....a race to the bottom.
 

mullion

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Doesn`t seem to be as a customer I was talking to said it had cost them a fortune,
without having a dig those LPL pax will now have to go via MAN
 

Carl0927

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Doesn`t seem to be as a customer I was talking to said it had cost them a fortune,
without having a dig those LPL pax will now have to go via
Yes it's unwelcome, hopefully Blue Air or Ryanair will fill the void. A quick look in August travelling 15 to 29 Aug will set you back £ 328 plus bags.
 
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Aceshigh

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The harsh reality is that 50% of the Liverpool catchment is sea and then N Wales
If you are coming from the latter it's as easy to get to Manchester. Likewise if you live to the East of the city its as easy to get to Manchester.
 

Carl0927

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The harsh reality is that 50% of the Liverpool catchment is sea and then N Wales
If you are coming from the latter it's as easy to get to Manchester. Likewise if you live to the East of the city its as easy to get to Manchester.
Nether the less the airport is doing well. Liverpool's catchment area includes Manchester and beyond. LBA will also attract passengers from Manchester area.
 
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