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The Continuing Saga of Brexit... (Part II)

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Labour is supposed to be pledged to devolve APD, it's in their manifesto to follow the recommendation of the Welsh Labour party on policies to do with Wales whether they would do it is another question altogether.
Personally i'd probably end up voting Plaid for the first time, i used to vote Conservative and never have bothered voting Labour but i think the whole APD thing has opened my eyes to the fact that any UK government doesn't have Wales best interests at heart and if Wales is too meet it's potential as a country then it needs to make it's own decisions and not have them made in London.
Would Wales be better off as an independent country along the lines of many people's wishes in Scotland for that country?
 

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Won't be voting for that c*nt who is so called "leader of the opposition" and will not be voting for her & her shambolic government or her succeeding leaders - Boris Hitler or Jacob Himler.

I will be voting for the Liberals, they are quite tight in our constituency with labour only just getting in at the last general election. Liberal or Green party all the way. Not good for aviation but still better then this mockery we've got at the moment.

Amazingly, i was listening to LBC and a guy was on about changing the voting system. He voted leave, moaning that the system isn't really good. When challenged about the referendum in 2011 about the voting system he had no clue and didn't vote (shocking 42% turn out) yet then stated he wanted another one.

Amazing isn't it - when it suits that sort of person, their political view, they want a second referendum but when it doesn't suit their political views it's an outstanding no with the laughing stock of "a referendum is democratic. A second one is not". I did nearly phone in but feared i would swear on live radio so decided against it.

I think the UK shouldn't have a referendum on that and instead should change it. If we had proportional representation (alternative vote) its better but if that had been successful in 2011 this still wouldn't of been avoided due to Cons/UKIP been an overall majority coalition government.

2015
Cons - 242
Labour - 199
UKIP - 82
Lib - 51
SNP - 31
Greens - 24.
 
Blimey Jerry careful there you might end up with a 52/48 vote could keep the pot bubbling for years especially if your elected politicians disagree with the 52% meanwhile naff all gets done on other matters, you know education, health services etc. I exadurate but you get the drift its difficult to think of a time when this country has been so poorly served by the political class in my lifetime.
 
Yes I do believe it would.
Blimey Jerry careful there you might end up with a 52/48 vote could keep the pot bubbling for years especially if your elected politicians disagree with the 52% meanwhile naff all gets done on other matters, you know education, health services etc. I exadurate but you get the drift its difficult to think of a time when this country has been so poorly served by the political class in my lifetime.
In September 1997 the 'New Labour' Westminster government held a referendum in Wales asking voters whether there should be a Welsh Assembly. It fulfilled Labour's manifesto commitment and the referendum was held very quickly after Labour came into power in May 1997.
A previous referendum held in 1979 saw voters decide four to one against Welsh devolution.

In September 1997 the result was even closer than the UK EU referendum. 559,419 Welsh voters said there should be a Welsh Assembly and 552,698 said there should not. That's 50.3% for and 49.7% against. It seems that the issue was not one that caught the imagination of all people living in Wales because the overall turnout was 50.2%.

My view is that the UK is heading towards an inevitable break-up. It might take a decade or two but the current quaisi federal system with three of the four constituent countries having forms of devolved government (and their own secretaries of state at Westminster), but with the fourth and by far the largest constituent country being completely ruled by the UK government with elected representatives from the other 'home nations' having a say on purely English matters (with no reciprocal influence by English representatives in the devolved governments) is not sustainable over a long term.

I empathise with Welsh calls for parity with Scotland and Northern Ireland regarding self-governance powers. Clearly the current situation is not equitable but neither is the situation with England having no government of its own. I'm sure the tipping point will come when Scotland leaves the UK. That day might be hastened if the UK does leave the EU.
 
The political system may appear shambollic but as I have said before, it is a very good cross section of the wider populous and its political beliefs. The political system itself isn't broken, it is our nation which is broken.

As a nation we have become intolerable of other nationalities and beliefs. We think we are better and more deserving than anybody else. The core fundamental issues surrounding Brexit won't actually be solved by Brexit they will be magnified.

I've heard mentioned a few times in the press that there are to many remain politicians putting their own personal beliefs before their constituents. I find it an amusing comment as Brexiteer supporters such as Jacob Rees Mogg move their personal wealth out of the UK in anticipation for the ensuing chaos following a no deal Brexit to capitalise on the stock markets for their own personal gain.
 
I'd be voting for the Independent Group given a chance. They seem to have a bit more common sense between them.
Until this morning I’ve have been inclined to do the same but there was a devisive split on how they voted so it looks like even they can’t agree.
 
In September 1997 the result was even closer than the UK EU referendum. 559,419 Welsh voters said there should be a Welsh Assembly and 552,698 said there should not. That's 50.3% for and 49.7% against. It seems that the issue was not one that caught the imagination of all people living in Wales because the overall turnout was 50.2%.
Wales is a strange nation in that many believe that the Welsh can't govern themselves. There was another referendum to allow more powers in 2011 irony is now labour have given a load up. I do believe now polling says that about 25% of people are in favour of independence which means it's growing and also it's being talked about more in the Welsh press. I do think that in the corridors of power in London Wales is seen as inferior and not equal to Scotland and Northern Ireland.
 
In years to come, in universities and business schools of the world, the UK's negotiation of Brexit will be taught as a lesson in how not to negotiate. The EU has run rings round our negotiating team let by the remain leaning Civil servants. Why didn't the Government include business men skilled in negotiating deals. Madness.
 
In years to come, in universities and business schools of the world, the UK's negotiation of Brexit will be taught as a lesson in how not to negotiate. The EU has run rings round our negotiating team let by the remain leaning Civil servants. Why didn't the Government include business men skilled in negotiating deals. Madness.
Because negotiating a framework for a withdrawal agreement and trade negotiation is completely different. Many of the negotiators the government hired are from New Zealand. The problem for the UK is that after 40 years in the EU it's lost the ability to negotiate because the EU took that over. The agreement that isn't getting through Parliament was the best compromise they could get that keeps both parties happy and guarentees that the Belfast agreement (which is an international treaty) is upheld and the basis of that agreement which has kept the peace in Northern Ireland, is that there must not be a border on the island of Ireland.
 
Because negotiating a framework for a withdrawal agreement and trade negotiation is completely different. Many of the negotiators the government hired are from New Zealand. The problem for the UK is that after 40 years in the EU it's lost the ability to negotiate because the EU took that over. The agreement that isn't getting through Parliament was the best compromise they could get that keeps both parties happy and guarentees that the Belfast agreement (which is an international treaty) is upheld and the basis of that agreement which has kept the peace in Northern Ireland, is that there must not be a border on the island of Ireland.
It really does amaze me when people say a better deal could have been negotiated. I'm no expert but as far as my tiny brain can comprehend there are 4 options:

- The Deal this government has negotiated (Withdrawal Agreement)
- No Deal
- No Brexit (Revoke Article 50)
- "Labour's Custom's Union/Single Market Deal"

The last one (Labour's plan) is basically Brexit in name only in such that it is essentially maintaining the current relationship the UK has with the EU with the exception that we have absolutely no say over anything in the future - what's the point in that!

After TM's 'statement' this evening, people are accusing her of being obsessed with her plan. Think I saw a tweet basically saying "TM: MY DEAL, MY DEAL, MY DEAL IS THE BEST". :rolleyes:

In her statement she basically said No Deal was bad and that Parliament had voted against that and that the people had voted against remaining in 2016. At this late stage the only realistic alternative IS the Withdrawal Agreement.

Also many people are questioning why TM 'attacked' MP's when she needs their support to get her deal through.

To me her statement came across as:
- These are the options (No Deal, Withdrawal Agreement & Remain)
- MP's have continuously said what they DON'T want.
- MP's need to decide which they DO want

Almost seemed like TM has gone past the point of caring and she just wants parliament to agree in favour of something and not against something for a change!
 
It really does amaze me when people say a better deal could have been negotiated.
I think it's just a reflection of people's lack of trust in the government and what many fail to realise is that the whole Brexit process has shown just how hard Brexit really is to achieve. It might actually be impossible.
 
I think it's just a reflection of people's lack of trust in the government and what many fail to realise is that the whole Brexit process has shown just how hard Brexit really is to achieve. It might actually be impossible.
I wouldn't say impossible, just different to what people imagined Brexit would be like when we had the referendum.
 

This sums Brexit up. "An Englishman an Irishman, a Scotchman and a Welshman went into a pub, the Englishman said he wanted to leave so they all had to leave."

The film by the Guardian makes Brexit seem very real and shows how it will affect real lives.

It's a very sad situation.


Another Guardian film shows a reporter visiting a "Vote Leave" area in the North of England. What is clear is people are desperate for change. Nobody really knows the answer to the problems the country faces but they see Brexit as the only way to initiate real change. They don't even know if Brexit will achieve the changes they seek but they say things can't get any worse for them.

Whether Brexit goes ahead as planned or not, these deprived area of the country are going to need significant investment. In my opinion, the Brexit vote result was swayed by austerity and cuts. Had these areas maintained the public services they have lost they would not have been on their knees as they are today.
 

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