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The Continuing Saga of Brexit... (Part II)

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One things for sure is there needs to be new rules on referendums so votes that are simply too close can't change the status quo.
The problem with that is "is it democratically fair?"

In the case of the EU Referendum of 2016, it would hardly be fair that if 52% voted Remain then we Remained, but if 52% voted Leave then we'd still Remain.

And then you have the problem of who decides what is too close?

Taking it to the extreme, if 17,000,001 people voted Leave whilst 16,999,999 voted Remain, fundamentally more people voted Leave than Remain. Yes it would only be a 2 person 'majority', but if you were to say "No, that's too close. We're going to stay with the status quo" you're basically saying a Leave vote is "worth" less than a Remain vote. I can't see anyway in which that is democratic.

The fundamental problem with the Brexit process to date is the fact that before the referendum in 2016, nobody in government (or opposition) thought the country would actually vote to leave the EU, and as such no plan was in place for that eventuality.

The current problem in parliament is that there are so many factions each vying for their own version of Brexit or Remain. There have been no less than 16 plans put forward for the indicative votes later today. The Speaker will choose which of these will be put forward for the vote, but the fact that that many proposals have been put forward demonstrates just how divided parliament is on Brexit.

As it stands, I do honestly believe that the only deal we're going to be able to negotiate is the deal this government has negotiated. The only alternatives that are realistically achievable are No Deal or No Brexit. That is why the PM has kept bringing "her" deal back to the commons for additional votes.

I would be very surprised if the indicative votes later today produce a clear direction that a majority in the commons agrees on. The commons have clearly shown that, rightly or wrongly, they will not let No Deal happen, so I hope that the Withdrawal Agreement can then be voted through the commons and we can get on with Brexit.

The alternative is more delay, and possibly another referendum or a general election, both of which will make MPs more unpopular with a large number of voters.
 

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A referendum is only an indicative vote just as the votes in the Commons are this evening. Referendums are not part of the UK democratic process. Furthermore, the so called "Will of the people" back in 2016 might not be the will of the people in 2019, just as the Conservative government could be voted out in 2022 by a change in the "Will of the people" at the next General Election.
 
A referendum is only an indicative vote just as the votes in the Commons are this evening. Referendums are not part of the UK democratic process. Furthermore, the so called "Will of the people" back in 2016 might not be the will of the people in 2019, just as the Conservative government could be voted out in 2022 by a change in the "Will of the people" at the next General Election.
If Scotland had voted to leave the UK would you say the same?
For the referendum to be held an act has to be passed through parliament making it part of the UK's democratic process and although rare the UK has held referendums before.
 
The general election vs referendum argument I've seen a number of times over the past few years. Whilst I understand the point you're making, the way parliament is made up means it is relatively easy to change every 5 years. We can't keep holding referendums every 5 years to decide whether or not we should be in the EU and keep going in and out.

The biggest problem I have with holding another referendum now is what should the question be?

A rerun of the 2016 referendum would mean cancelling Brexit if Remain wins which is fine, but if Leave wins the referendum hasn't helped to break the deadlock the country is currently in.

A Remain vs TM's deal referendum would leave a lot of people who don't support TM's deal but wanting to leave the EU with nothing to vote for. Likewise a Remain vs No Deal gives no option for people who want to leave the EU but don't want a hard Brexit.

A three-way Remain vs TM's Deal vs No Deal would split Leave supporters, which could result in Remain being the most "popular" option but more people supporting Leave overall.

Allowing the electorate to rank their preferences is something which has never been done before in the UK, and could still end up with the most popular option being supported by a minority of people.

Given that most of these options gives Remain a statistical advantage, it's hardly surprising the vast majority of people calling for a second referendum are Remainers!
 
What a bunch of Hypocrites both Jacob Rees Mogg and Boris Johnson. After months of them refusing to back the PM's deal becouse it is an awful deal. Now becouse they have kicked themselves in the foot and fear Brexit will either not happen or be a soft Brexit they will support the deal.

What a complete and utter shambles, they are a disgrace :mad:
 
No majority for any of Brexit options

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47728333

"None of MPs' eight proposed options for Brexit have secured clear backing following a Commons vote."

MPs can't make up their minds - should the public have a say? Referendum discussed above. Other option is a general election. Can't see us leaving the EU this year.

By the sound of things, MP's will have another chance to vote on these on Monday - not sure what exactly that will achieve...
 
Just the opinion of 1 person. I'd imagine if you did a Europe wide poll people would want the UK to stay in the EU. I do think that on the UK side people have under estimated how much the UK is liked and respected in Europe though maybe the respect is partly going due to the political shenanigans going on!
 
Okay. I'll sart the ball rolling again on this one.

Has anyone changed their minds since voting in the Ref? If so would you follow through on that should you get the opportunity to have another vote?
 
Not me as you would probably expect as an avid remainer. I am fairly sure many Brexiteers feel just the same too to be honest. Its one mighty sh*tstorm and I don't see any way out of it. It is my belief this will wrangle on for years with Brexiteers continuing to blame the EU for the mess we got ourselves into. We are economically, socially and culturally worse off now whatever the political outcome.
 
Anyone watch that absolute waste of space (and quite frankly a c**t) Nigel Farage on Question time Thursday? When asked to name a country that has done deals under the basic WTO agreements he couldn't name one country in the world. He hid behind the answer for so long but the audience member, quite rightly, kept going for it until he got the answer we all knew "None".

And yet he bangs on about it. The guy is deluded and you can tell that the lies and bullshit he spread is starting to come untangled. Hilarious though; he's got him and his family german residence & is paid by the European Parliament. I'd really get the European secret service to wipe him off this earth if i'm honest.


Oh and whilst we are on the subjects of c***s walking around spouting absolute bull shit - its nice to see (its bit old news), T**** R******n (vile human scumbag, scraped from the gutter if you ask me) covered in a milkshake. Real shame it wasn't acid within the milkshake, then fuel in another cup, then a naked flame tbh.

What we really have is exactly what Germany had at the rise of Hitler. Some right wing, deluded, facist scum bag going round spouting crap. Protected by gangs of muscle men. That is exactly how it all started for Hitler.

My language is my language - and these are my thoughts. Not the thoughts of this forum.
 
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Still definitely leave and the reason no country operates under WTO is simply its a base from which countries negotiate from and until we leave the EU we are not allowed to do that and that includes one with the EU who have said that will be a priority in the so called future arrangement and why there is an extended period where little changes after exiting under the agreement for exiting reached by the government and the EU but parliament will not sign off as they have about twenty seven different options that they can't agree on and it makes me wonder a general election would actually achieve as the same people or clones ( clowns?) would be returned with the same views including ignoring/twisting the publics vote not just on Brexit.

Aviador is quite correct this has split the country down the middle and will continue to do so for a longtime.

On a personal note I try and stay off this subject (obviously I've failed) as it got the potential to set members at loggerheads with each other which is not this forums style.
 
Whilst some may have a vitriolic opinion of Farage, it would appear not to be shared by the majority of UK voters. The latest You Gov poll for the Euro elections put the Brexit party on 34% with Labour next on 16%. The others less than that.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politic...ean-parliament-voting-intention-brex-34-lab-1

Does make you wonder what the result would be if it all went to a second referendum though
Farage gains far too much air time. The media like him because he's entertaining not for any other reason. How often do you see the other minor political parties on the TV.

I personally think he is a dangerous man and he's not going to dissapear after Brexit is cleared up.
 
Whilst some may have a vitriolic opinion of Farage, it would appear not to be shared by the majority of UK voters. The latest You Gov poll for the Euro elections put the Brexit party on 34% with Labour next on 16%. The others less than that.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politic...ean-parliament-voting-intention-brex-34-lab-1

Does make you wonder what the result would be if it all went to a second referendum though
After 3 failed opinion polls of the general election i don't trust them at all.
 
Farage gains far too much air time. The media like him because he's entertaining not for any other reason. How often do you see the other minor political parties on the TV.

I personally think he is a dangerous man and he's not going to dissapear after Brexit is cleared up.
I think the problem is there are very few Brexiteers that the media can interview especially if they want to try and remain impartial, so the same old faces keep popping up and Farage is one of them.
 

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