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The Continuing Saga of Brexit... (Part II)

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One things for sure is there needs to be new rules on referendums so votes that are simply too close can't change the status quo.
The problem with that is "is it democratically fair?"

In the case of the EU Referendum of 2016, it would hardly be fair that if 52% voted Remain then we Remained, but if 52% voted Leave then we'd still Remain.

And then you have the problem of who decides what is too close?

Taking it to the extreme, if 17,000,001 people voted Leave whilst 16,999,999 voted Remain, fundamentally more people voted Leave than Remain. Yes it would only be a 2 person 'majority', but if you were to say "No, that's too close. We're going to stay with the status quo" you're basically saying a Leave vote is "worth" less than a Remain vote. I can't see anyway in which that is democratic.

The fundamental problem with the Brexit process to date is the fact that before the referendum in 2016, nobody in government (or opposition) thought the country would actually vote to leave the EU, and as such no plan was in place for that eventuality.

The current problem in parliament is that there are so many factions each vying for their own version of Brexit or Remain. There have been no less than 16 plans put forward for the indicative votes later today. The Speaker will choose which of these will be put forward for the vote, but the fact that that many proposals have been put forward demonstrates just how divided parliament is on Brexit.

As it stands, I do honestly believe that the only deal we're going to be able to negotiate is the deal this government has negotiated. The only alternatives that are realistically achievable are No Deal or No Brexit. That is why the PM has kept bringing "her" deal back to the commons for additional votes.

I would be very surprised if the indicative votes later today produce a clear direction that a majority in the commons agrees on. The commons have clearly shown that, rightly or wrongly, they will not let No Deal happen, so I hope that the Withdrawal Agreement can then be voted through the commons and we can get on with Brexit.

The alternative is more delay, and possibly another referendum or a general election, both of which will make MPs more unpopular with a large number of voters.
 

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A referendum is only an indicative vote just as the votes in the Commons are this evening. Referendums are not part of the UK democratic process. Furthermore, the so called "Will of the people" back in 2016 might not be the will of the people in 2019, just as the Conservative government could be voted out in 2022 by a change in the "Will of the people" at the next General Election.
 
A referendum is only an indicative vote just as the votes in the Commons are this evening. Referendums are not part of the UK democratic process. Furthermore, the so called "Will of the people" back in 2016 might not be the will of the people in 2019, just as the Conservative government could be voted out in 2022 by a change in the "Will of the people" at the next General Election.
If Scotland had voted to leave the UK would you say the same?
For the referendum to be held an act has to be passed through parliament making it part of the UK's democratic process and although rare the UK has held referendums before.
 
The general election vs referendum argument I've seen a number of times over the past few years. Whilst I understand the point you're making, the way parliament is made up means it is relatively easy to change every 5 years. We can't keep holding referendums every 5 years to decide whether or not we should be in the EU and keep going in and out.

The biggest problem I have with holding another referendum now is what should the question be?

A rerun of the 2016 referendum would mean cancelling Brexit if Remain wins which is fine, but if Leave wins the referendum hasn't helped to break the deadlock the country is currently in.

A Remain vs TM's deal referendum would leave a lot of people who don't support TM's deal but wanting to leave the EU with nothing to vote for. Likewise a Remain vs No Deal gives no option for people who want to leave the EU but don't want a hard Brexit.

A three-way Remain vs TM's Deal vs No Deal would split Leave supporters, which could result in Remain being the most "popular" option but more people supporting Leave overall.

Allowing the electorate to rank their preferences is something which has never been done before in the UK, and could still end up with the most popular option being supported by a minority of people.

Given that most of these options gives Remain a statistical advantage, it's hardly surprising the vast majority of people calling for a second referendum are Remainers!
 
What a bunch of Hypocrites both Jacob Rees Mogg and Boris Johnson. After months of them refusing to back the PM's deal becouse it is an awful deal. Now becouse they have kicked themselves in the foot and fear Brexit will either not happen or be a soft Brexit they will support the deal.

What a complete and utter shambles, they are a disgrace :mad:
 
No majority for any of Brexit options

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47728333

"None of MPs' eight proposed options for Brexit have secured clear backing following a Commons vote."

MPs can't make up their minds - should the public have a say? Referendum discussed above. Other option is a general election. Can't see us leaving the EU this year.

By the sound of things, MP's will have another chance to vote on these on Monday - not sure what exactly that will achieve...
 
Just the opinion of 1 person. I'd imagine if you did a Europe wide poll people would want the UK to stay in the EU. I do think that on the UK side people have under estimated how much the UK is liked and respected in Europe though maybe the respect is partly going due to the political shenanigans going on!
 

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