Life after Brexit, the Land of Milk, Honey and Utopia?

Sherburnflyer92

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I've done some digging re: the article.

Apparently we are 70,000 HGV drivers short within the UK with many Eastern European drivers departing the UK to head home. And quite rightly. It is something to do with Tax however I'm not sure sure what and discussing tax etc is something that confused the life out of me as they make it a complicated system.

It appears a multitude of factors have come to to the surface at once; Lockdown recovery with a sharp uptake of goods/services causing sharp rise in demand for deliveries of those goods, Brexit pushing out many Eastern European HGV drivers back abroad; and a natural shortage of drivers in the UK. Apparently the industry bodies have been lobbying, discussing with government, the shortages of drivers in their industry for the last decade so this is something they were aware off. It just appears that remaining in the EU, then lockdown, covered those problems up. Until now.

Sadly this is a thing to come with many supermarkets facing shortages of drivers and therefore deliveries turning up days late and stock been out of stock for days on end. This is a sign of things to come.
 

JENNYJET

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Hmm, perhaps the regulations surrounding HGV Driver training and employment are too stringent for British tastes hence the recruitment of European trained driving staff to whom regulations come naturally.

A possible solution is to offer employment to the numerous military personnel being cut from the services, saving them from the prospect of sleeping rough as many end up doing for whatever reason.
 

Jerry

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The haulage industry can be hard work. Long days punctuated by sleeping in 7 foot wide box, eating crap food for traffic planners who think a 15 hour working day is short and complain if you refuse to work 6 days a week. Yes you can take home 600 to 700 pounds a week but you'll have to average 60 to 70 hours a week to do it and spend 4 to 5 nights away from home often sleeping by the side of the road. It's not attractive as a career and you can spend 2500 pounds getting the full Class 1 licence and in general what you do isn't appreciated and you'll often be seen on sites as either a nuisance someone doesn't want to deal with or as a health and safety hazard because people assume you're stupid.
With the Eastern European drivers a lot used to come over seasonally to work or do it for a few years because the pay was better but now Eastern Europe especially Poland has caught up and the living standards in Eastern Europe has also improved. People can earn just as much money as here and stay in their own country and that was happening pre Brexit post Brexit it's a case of why should they bother?
I doubt the government will bother trying to rectify the driver shortage as in general they don't see professional drivers as a trade.
 

Sherburnflyer92

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Sadly you are correct.

There isn't just haulage in terms of long days away from home etc. There is other HGV driving such as Supermarket work. That is intense and probably just as demanding if not more (given the expansion of home delivery there is only really one yard a HGV and all those delivery vans can share) but a bit more stable. Unfortunately supermarket haulage is a victim too.

And that in turn will see shortages of stock on supermarket shelves etc for a periods (not just one or two days) of time.
 

TheLocalYokel

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I've done some digging re: the article.

Apparently we are 70,000 HGV drivers short within the UK with many Eastern European drivers departing the UK to head home. And quite rightly. It is something to do with Tax however I'm not sure sure what and discussing tax etc is something that confused the life out of me as they make it a complicated system.

It appears a multitude of factors have come to to the surface at once; Lockdown recovery with a sharp uptake of goods/services causing sharp rise in demand for deliveries of those goods, Brexit pushing out many Eastern European HGV drivers back abroad; and a natural shortage of drivers in the UK. Apparently the industry bodies have been lobbying, discussing with government, the shortages of drivers in their industry for the last decade so this is something they were aware off. It just appears that remaining in the EU, then lockdown, covered those problems up. Until now.

Sadly this is a thing to come with many supermarkets facing shortages of drivers and therefore deliveries turning up days late and stock been out of stock for days on end. This is a sign of things to come.

Which article have you been digging into?

The article referenced at #359 headed The UK's Flexible Constitution Has Had Its Day which is hidden behind a pay wall and which JENNY JET asks for more detail discusses something else.

In summary* the writer of that article, who was previously in favour of what she describes as the UK's 'famed flexibility of constitutional arrangements', now believes that it has had its day. The constitution that has evolved over centuries, but not written down in one single text although largely written nonetheless (through statutes, conventions and judicial decisions), has allowed the UK to change with the times.

She argues that such flexibility, although extremely useful in many ways, means that a government can rejig rules to suit itself and she provides a number of examples where this has occurred and others that might be about to happen.

The writer also argues that 'Brexit and coronavirus have also inflamed tensions with the governments of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and shown how their powers are poorly defined'.

She does not believe that writing a whole constitution for the UK would be realistic and might even break up the UK. However, a written constitution ought to be considered for 'core areas'. I suppose that would lead to inevitable endless debate and argument as to what are the core areas.

* I've had to resort to a very short precis of the article to avoid copyright issues. The article is detailed and worth reading for most people who have an interest in such matters, whether or not one agrees with the writer's conclusions.
 

JENNYJET

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The US constitution should be a warning to not go down that road. It is not the articles but the Amendments that cause the courts a lot of heartache.

The UK has the better way because it has had centuries to bed down it's rules, rights and responsibilities through it's laws and precedents. It is it's organic nature that makes it work and should something come amiss, a Bill is presented and debated and if agreed upon is given Royal Assent. No need to write a new constitution.

However please do not forget the Bill of Rights it is no longer held as a legal document as varied Acts of Parliament have replaced what were the articles, and there lies the Constitution. Some people believe in Moses Laws or those of Mohammed ( blessings be upon him ), as superior and having primacy but in those traditions, it is the laws of one's rulers that matter.

Interpret that if you can!!
 

Sherburnflyer92

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Which article have you been digging into?

I’d got it in my head it was about driver shortage in U.K., as the FT has written that too. So automatically presumed that one.

The article I refer to is:

 

TheLocalYokel

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Thank you Sherburnflyer.
 

Jerry

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No need to write a new constitution.
Probably impossible to write a constitution for the UK as you'd never get everyone to agree. The reality is that the UK relies on the government of the time to have honour and not abuse the system and it has no checks in place because a government with a majority can essentially do what it likes. The current government is an example of that. There isn't even an elected second house to act as a check and the head of state is essentially useless in acting as a check. The US constitution isn't perfect but it has a lot of checks and balances in place to prevent and limit any governments abuse of power. UK doesn't have that. It has an 18th century system in the 21st century and with FPTP as the electoral system it's exaggerated even more. There does need to be some sort of written conventions in place to modernise the whole system.
 

JENNYJET

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The French and Americans had revolution before new constitution was created and I suspect it may require the new Sovereign before Britain considers such a path. The current Monarch as sworn to defend the present settlement between Crown and Executive.
 

TheLocalYokel

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Probably impossible to write a constitution for the UK as you'd never get everyone to agree. The reality is that the UK relies on the government of the time to have honour and not abuse the system and it has no checks in place because a government with a majority can essentially do what it likes. The current government is an example of that. There isn't even an elected second house to act as a check and the head of state is essentially useless in acting as a check. The US constitution isn't perfect but it has a lot of checks and balances in place to prevent and limit any governments abuse of power. UK doesn't have that. It has an 18th century system in the 21st century and with FPTP as the electoral system it's exaggerated even more. There does need to be some sort of written conventions in place to modernise the whole system.
The article writer gave a number of examples of what she describes as a government rejigging rules that it finds inconvenient, concentrating mainly but not exclusively on the current government and prime minister. She is not suggesting a complete Constitution but one that deals with core matters. That in itself would be subjective.

JENNY JET has posted wise words of caution and warning should a government be tempted to look at a Constitution, even a partial one.

Did it link to it? All I can see is subscribe.
Not by clicking on the link. However, I find that if I type the article heading into the Google search engine and reach the link that way the entire article appears. That's how I was able to access the FT article about the UK Constitution. I'm not a FT subscriber.
 

TheLocalYokel

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The French and Americans had revolution before new constitution was created and I suspect it may require the new Sovereign before Britain considers such a path. The current Monarch as sworn to defend the present settlement between Crown and Executive.
I've sent you a Conversations message with more detail of the FT article.
 

Jerry

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The French and Americans had revolution before new constitution was created and I suspect it may require the new Sovereign before Britain considers such a path. The current Monarch as sworn to defend the present settlement between Crown and Executive.
The UK doesn't need a civil war or revolution to start making it's constitution a more written one and the monarch will essentially do what they are told by any government of the time.
 

Jerry

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The article writer gave a number of examples of what she describes as a government rejigging rules that it finds inconvenient, concentrating mainly but not exclusively on the current government and prime minister. She is not suggesting a complete Constitution but one that deals with core matters. That in itself would be subjective.

JENNY JET has posted wise words of caution and warning should a government be tempted to look at a Constitution, even a partial one.


Not by clicking on the link. However, I find that if I type the article heading into the Google search engine and reach the link that way the entire article appears. That's how I was able to access the FT article about the UK Constitution. I'm not a FT subscriber.
Writing a full written constitution for the UK would be next to impossible as it would require unprecedented political cooperation across UK
politics but some codification should be possible especially when it comes to how governments are supposed to act.
 

JENNYJET

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There IS a codified publication. I have copies of 'PARLIAMENTARY PRACTICE ' as published by Erskine May. Those rows of green volumes on the big table in the chamber of the House of Commons. It is the book containing the procedural rules governing Parliamentary and The Executive branch and much of it's content carries the full weight of Law.

Used copies of previous editions can be found on eBay though not cheap.
 
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