Life after Brexit, the Land of Milk, Honey and Utopia?


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aviatorconcorde

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I never said it hadn't. For the UK its a double whammy, Brexit and the virus add into that a population that doesn't have the skills let alone the will to do a job like that.
As for the wages my understanding is that the pickers in general do get paid a good wage.
It was my impression the majority are paid the minimum wage but happy to be corrected. Again, I think if the hourly rate was increased you’d see more Brits willing to do it.
 

Jerry

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It was my impression the majority are paid the minimum wage but happy to be corrected. Again, I think if the hourly rate was increased you’d see more Brits willing to do it.
From what I've read they can get paid well.
As for Brits doing the work the average UK citizen doesn't want to do it or is actually capable doing the physical work. Most of the pickers come farming communities and are trained and used to the labour as they've grown up doing it and are used to working in fields in all weathers, my understanding is that they are professional seasonal workers.
 

TheLocalYokel

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I'll admit not directly Brexit related but could this be the start of limiting freedom of movement within the UK?
As you say Jerry, not directly related to Brexit but it could be argued that Brexit might have an indirect effect if it puts into focus again the call for independence from the UK by elements in the devolved countries. If they all achieved that then England would also be an independent country by default and there would not be a UK any more, although goodness knows how the Northern Ireland situation would be sorted out.

The linked WalesOnline newspaper report contains quotes and remarks that suggest that 'England' is making this decision (see examples below in italics which include quotes from the WG).

It's not 'England', it's the UK government. Given cabinet collective responsibility I wonder if the two members of the cabinet who represent constituencies in Wales and Scotland will resign from the government if they disagree. If not, Wales Online should make it abundantly clear that one of Wales's own MPs is part of the UK government advocating this measure on behalf of England - assuming the move is planned; reportedly it will be announced next week.

If 'England' is to be blamed for something that the UK government has decided on its behalf, as has been the case with coronavirus restrictions, then it's about time that England had its own government too with no input from elected representatives from the other Home countries. Any criticism from the devolved governments about 'England' would then be aimed at the proper target.

The detailed reasons for the move are not made clear other than an allusion to the coronavirus.

A Welsh Government spokesman said it was not up to England to tell Wales how to work out student numbers.

“We are not implementing controls on students going from Wales to England, but all options are on the table if England don’t respect our decision making.”

Usually each UK nation works out its own controls for UK, EU and international students and there is fury that England is now setting out what students Wales and other devolved nations should do.
 

aviatorconcorde

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From what I've read they can get paid well.
As for Brits doing the work the average UK citizen doesn't want to do it or is actually capable doing the physical work. Most of the pickers come farming communities and are trained and used to the labour as they've grown up doing it and are used to working in fields in all weathers, my understanding is that they are professional seasonal workers.
You may well be right - but i’m sure if the wage levels were increased you’d see more British people taking up those positions.

What’s actually quite funny is British people visit pick your own farms and then pay to pick fruit.
 

aviatorconcorde

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As you say Jerry, not directly related to Brexit but it could be argued that Brexit might have an indirect effect if it puts into focus again the call for independence from the UK by elements in the devolved countries. If they all achieved that then England would also be an independent country by default and there would not be a UK any more, although goodness knows how the Northern Ireland situation would be sorted out.

The linked WalesOnline newspaper report contains quotes and remarks that suggest that 'England' is making this decision (see examples below in italics which include quotes from the WG).

It's not 'England', it's the UK government. Given cabinet collective responsibility I wonder if the two members of the cabinet who represent constituencies in Wales and Scotland will resign from the government if they disagree. If not, Wales Online should make it abundantly clear that one of Wales's own MPs is part of the UK government advocating this measure on behalf of England - assuming the move is planned; reportedly it will be announced next week.

If 'England' is to be blamed for something that the UK government has decided on its behalf, as has been the case with coronavirus restrictions, then it's about time that England had its own government too with no input from elected representatives from the other Home countries. Any criticism from the devolved governments about 'England' would then be aimed at the proper target.

The detailed reasons for the move are not made clear other than an allusion to the coronavirus.

A Welsh Government spokesman said it was not up to England to tell Wales how to work out student numbers.

“We are not implementing controls on students going from Wales to England, but all options are on the table if England don’t respect our decision making.”

Usually each UK nation works out its own controls for UK, EU and international students and there is fury that England is now setting out what students Wales and other devolved nations should do.
One possibly solution to the scenario you suggest Is appoint an executive branch like the United States to deal with defence and foreign affairs and give the 4 Nations complete autonomy for domestic issues just like the US.

I genuinely believe Scotland would now vote to be independent if given the chance, while Wales would vote no if given the chance. It will never be possible to Unite Ireland though.
 

Jerry

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there would not be a UK any more, although goodness knows how the Northern Ireland situation would be sorted out.
I suppose it depends if there is a border poll and the vote on that.
I'd imagine that if Scotland left today the country may well be called the Kingdom of England and Northern Ireland or possibly the United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland. If it Wales the name wouldn't change as Wales would gain independence technically from England, the Great Britain part wouldn't disband. Imo Wales journey to independence would be more like a colony similar to Australia or Ireland and I think will be a lot more complicated than many think!
It's not 'England', it's the UK government.
The problem is that in devolved matters like education and health the UK government only acts for England though its budgets for devolved matters have a Barnett consequence. There has been a lot of emphasis on the press here making the distinction due to virus as the UK government announcements don't cover Wales. But it goes back to the system we have and for many the lack of understanding of devolution.
 

Jerry

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One possibly solution to the scenario you suggest Is appoint an executive branch like the United States to deal with defence and foreign affairs and give the 4 Nations complete autonomy for domestic issues just like the US.

I genuinely believe Scotland would now vote to be independent if given the chance, while Wales would vote no if given the chance. It will never be possible to Unite Ireland though.
A federal system like the USA never work as it would have to have a modicum of equality between the 4 nations and England being the biggest would never accept that. As an example could you imagine if Scotland had vetoed Brexit?
Also the USA and the UK came about completely differently.
I do feel Scotland and Wales will become independent eventually but Wales independence might look different to say Scotland especially in the beginning. As for a United Ireland the longer there is peace the more inevitable it becomes. But I do feel as well that it would be beneficial for England as well. The English would get their identity back on the world stage as it seems to be subsumed into the British one and they'd get neighbours who'll be making themselves richer in the long run.
 

JENNYJET

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The food will get picked because people demand it at the supermarket and those organisations will not like the financial loss. There is a solution to shortage of pickers, empty the prisons of all those tough men and get them to do it. A period of remission will be incentive enough and do them some good.
 

JENNYJET

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The island of Britain will always exist even if the constituent countries come or go as that is political and not geographical. If Scotland became independent the situation on the main island would mirror that of Sint/Saint Maarten/Martin. Half France and half Netherlands, both independent of each other though not of the European parent but on one island territory.
 

Jerry

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The food will get picked because people demand it at the supermarket and those organisations will not like the financial loss. There is a solution to shortage of pickers, empty the prisons of all those tough men and get them to do it. A period of remission will be incentive enough and do them some good.
I can imagine the human rights lawyers would love that!
 

JENNYJET

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B****cks to those hyenas looking to bring cases under Human Rights act, prison is not supposed to be a holiday and work is part of prison life so I can see no case to answer if some were to go to farms in return for remission of sentence. The hand wringers will be first to complain if no cabbages were available.
 

TheLocalYokel

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The island of Britain will always exist even if the constituent countries come or go as that is political and not geographical. If Scotland became independent the situation on the main island would mirror that of Sint/Saint Maarten/Martin. Half France and half Netherlands, both independent of each other though not of the European parent but on one island territory.
If England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all left the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - in the case of the first three as independent states and in the case of Northern Ireland either as an independent state or joining with the Repubic of Ireland to become a united Ireland - there would be no parent United Kingdom in being.

Even if Scotland gained independence leaving the other three countries as a reduced United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, why would Scotland not be completely independent of the the United Kingdom in the way that the Republic of Ireland is after it seceded from the then United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland?

Even the georaphical term British Isles is controversial, including as it does the four countries of the UK, the Republic of Ireland, and the Isle of Man. Irish republicans don't like the term and the Irish government is not keen either and doesn't officially recognise it.
 

JENNYJET

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I was speaking of the island of Britain, the largest of the isles. If the countries chose to dissolve the United Kingdom then those would exist as independent nations sharing the land instead of being constituent nations within a United Kingdom. As is Germany, Netherlands and Belgium, independent but constituent nations within the European Union. The acts of union would be repealed and new treaties would be drawn up to enable coexistence and perhaps return to EU. The other islands would remain Crown Dependencies.
 

TheLocalYokel

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I was speaking of the island of Britain, the largest of the isles. If the countries chose to dissolve the United Kingdom then those would exist as independent nations sharing the land instead of being constituent nations within a United Kingdom. As is Germany, Netherlands and Belgium, independent but constituent nations within the European Union. The acts of union would be repealed and new treaties would be drawn up to enable coexistence and perhaps return to EU. The other islands would remain Crown Dependencies.
If all four current constituent countries of the UK became independent states it would raise a question of how the Channel Islands would proceed. Currently they are Crown Dependencies of the United Kingdom but if that was no longer extant which country would they be dependent upon?

The nearest of the four current Home nations is England so it might well be England that would take on the role, unless the Channel Islands decided to travel a different path and associate themselves with one of the other former Home nations, or even go it alone which might not be realistic when it comes to Defence and Foreign Affairs.

Furthermore, we don't now if any or all of the newly independent former Home nations would decide to retain the Sovereign as head of state or become republics.

In many ways sorting out a complete break-up of the UK would throw up as many, perhaps more, problems than the UK leaving the EU.
 

XEROX

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I never said it hadn't. For the UK its a double whammy, Brexit and the virus add into that a population that doesn't have the skills let alone the will to do a job like that.
As for the wages my understanding is that the pickers in general do get paid a good wage.
Ive read a farm now offering £2,000 per month....not bad even if it's for 3-4 months, but that's compared to pre-Brexit, £400 per week before lodgings etc was taken. I can imagine the cost of fruit and vegetables going up.
 

Jerry

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If all four current constituent countries of the UK became independent states it would raise a question of how the Channel Islands would proceed. Currently they are Crown Dependencies of the United Kingdom but if that was no longer extant which country would they be dependent upon?
It would be England. They'd be Crown dependencies of England as the channel islands at least were under English governance long before the UK, I'll have to check on the Isle of Man.
As for the head of state for Scotland I believe that the current head of state wwould take on the title of Queen/King of Scots.
Wales would be more complicated as it's more like a colony but I'd expect like New Zealand, Australia and Canada the current head of state would become Queen/King of Wales. Whether a governor general would be installed is a question that would need to be answered at the time. There definitely would be lots to negotiate!
 
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JENNYJET

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Mr. Yokel, about the Channel Islands. These are territorial lands belonging to the Duke of Normandy and the Isle of Mann is of the Duke of Lancaster. Both dukedoms are held by the reigning Monarch of United Kingdom hence Crown Dependancies. Those dukedoms are not dependent upon the gender of the Monarch and also predate the United Kingdom as a political structure and has precedence. If Scotland chose independence, the Crown of Scotland would be restored as a separate office and the nearest dependant of James 6 would take the throne and without checking this would be one of the current prince's of Windsor or possibly the Norwegian Royalty although the familial links to Denmark might have claims through Philip as the former Prince of Denmark and Greece. The Scots may choose to retain the house of Windsor or go Republic. Whatever happens, the Act of Union would fall.
 

aviatorconcorde

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Mr. Yokel, about the Channel Islands. These are territorial lands belonging to the Duke of Normandy and the Isle of Mann is of the Duke of Lancaster. Both dukedoms are held by the reigning Monarch of United Kingdom hence Crown Dependancies. Those dukedoms are not dependent upon the gender of the Monarch and also predate the United Kingdom as a political structure and has precedence. If Scotland chose independence, the Crown of Scotland would be restored as a separate office and the nearest dependant of James 6 would take the throne and without checking this would be one of the current prince's of Windsor or possibly the Norwegian Royalty although the familial links to Denmark might have claims through Philip as the former Prince of Denmark and Greece. The Scots may choose to retain the house of Windsor or go Republic. Whatever happens, the Act of Union would fall.
Would all that really happen?
 
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