A new airport.... South Yorkshire Airport City?

pug · Nov 23, 2023

So it looks like there has been a lot of back biting and finger pointing occurring over the previous 24-48 hours with regards to funding of this venture. I’m not about to pretend to understand the technicalities of the various funding pots available but reading Oliver Coppards statement today it would appear that the Government have not been entirely clear exactly how much of the HS2 money will be available to South Yorkshire and what it will be available for when it is available in 2027-whenever. The latest pot from which they are applying for funding for the Trams is for that very purpose and is not guaranteed hence the requirement to submit an outline business case to Central Govt. DSA does not qualify for this funding so they aren’t bothering to apply for that, and Coppard has clearly stated today that they will need a way of funding it locally.

Screams council tax rise to me. Don’t know who else may think that. Or indeed whether the money available through devolution is allowed to be spent on airport development at all?

Still, the funding package hasn’t been officially applied for yet, that is the job of Ros Jones in January where she will submit an OBC on behalf of CDC which I assume will have the estimated costs included, surveys have taken place recently to assess what is actually needed to get it back open, this was mentioned previously on here. That is open to speculation, could be as little as £20million, or as much as 9 figures.

Stagman · Nov 23, 2023

The devolution funding package can be used to purchase and invest in the airport. Look what has happened on Teesside. The Tees Valley Mayor has took the airport project on as an employment project hence able to release funding streams. The same thing can be done in DSA's case but the SYM hasn't been interested in the avenues that is available to him.

pug · Nov 23, 2023

Stagman said:
The devolution funding package can be used to purchase and invest in the airport. Look what has happened on Teesside. The Tees Valley Mayor has took the airport project on as an employment project hence able to release funding streams. The same thing can be done in DSA's case but the SYM hasn't been interested in the avenues that is available to him.

It’s not really the same as Teesside. Peel happily sold it for £40million, basically the amount they’d paid for it and invested in it including sustained losses throughout their tenure.

They invested a huge amount into DSA, something like £250million, where are they going to get that from? It would be unlikely to pass the government viability test to stop authorities squandering huge amounts on a white elephant. What is being implied (but as far as I’m aware hasn’t been explicitly stated) is that this is far too expensive for what is a failed business. They seem to believe that a CPO if successful would make it available to them as a piece of land at market value. The only realistic way of reopening is the lease and partnership with an experienced operator.

There really is no comparison to be made between the two other than to gain political capital.

pug · Nov 28, 2023

pug said:
It’s not really the same as Teesside. Peel happily sold it for £40million, basically the amount they’d paid for it and invested in it including sustained losses throughout their tenure.

They invested a huge amount into DSA, something like £250million, where are they going to get that from? It would be unlikely to pass the government viability test to stop authorities squandering huge amounts on a white elephant. What is being implied (but as far as I’m aware hasn’t been explicitly stated) is that this is far too expensive for what is a failed business. They seem to believe that a CPO if successful would make it available to them as a piece of land at market value. The only realistic way of reopening is the lease and partnership with an experienced operator.

There really is no comparison to be made between the two other than to gain political

pug said:
It’s not really the same as Teesside. Peel happily sold it for £40million, basically the amount they’d paid for it and invested in it including sustained losses throughout their tenure.

They invested a huge amount into DSA, something like £250million, where are they going to get that from? It would be unlikely to pass the government viability test to stop authorities squandering huge amounts on a white elephant. What is being implied (but as far as I’m aware hasn’t been explicitly stated) is that this is far too expensive for what is a failed business. They seem to believe that a CPO if successful would make it available to them as a piece of land at market value. The only realistic way of reopening is the lease and partnership with an experienced operator.

There really is no comparison to be made between the two other than to gain political capital.

Agenda for Cabinet on Wednesday, 6th December, 2023, 10.00 am - Modern Council

Is anyone able to decipher the contents on this link, agenda for Doncaster Cabinet meeting on 6th December.

Looks to me like they’re proposing to spend the full Doncaster allotted Gainshare funding on DSA. That is around £5million per year for 30 years, with further provisions for capital investment to reopen and apparently dependent on the success of the tender process and what a winning bidder may require to get a deal across the line.

It’s lots of money if it means other projects go without. Unless I’m misinterpreting.

Snackbar · Nov 28, 2023

pug said:
Agenda for Cabinet on Wednesday, 6th December, 2023, 10.00 am - Modern Council

Is anyone able to decipher the contents on this link, agenda for Doncaster Cabinet meeting on 6th December.

Looks to me like they’re proposing to spend the full Doncaster allotted Gainshare funding on DSA. That is around £5million per year for 30 years, with further provisions for capital investment to reopen and apparently dependent on the success of the tender process and what a winning bidder may require to get a deal across the line.

It’s lots of money if it means other projects go without. Unless I’m misinterpreting.

Not sure that is correct. The £5m over 30 years is the Gateshare funding available to Doncaster rather the the amount which needs to be drawdown for the airport. I can’t see a reference in the OBC to the detailed funding requirements for DSA. These are apparently detailed in Appendices A-C (which are redacted) although it does state the call on the Gateshare funding is significant and will be unavailable for other Doncaster projects.
As an aside the risk section makes eye watering reading for any local tax payer!

pug · Nov 28, 2023

Snackbar said:
Not sure that is correct. The £5m over 30 years is the Gateshare funding available to Doncaster rather the the amount which needs to be drawdown for the airport. I can’t see a reference in the OBC to the detailed funding requirements for DSA. These are apparently detailed in Appendices A-C (which are redacted) although it does state the call on the Gateshare funding is significant and will be unavailable for other Doncaster projects.
As an aside the risk section makes eye watering reading for any local tax payer!

Thanks for correcting. It’s certainly ambiguous if anything, the fact that they are being clear that the funding for DSA would mean other projects will suffer would suggest that even if it’s not the full gainshare allowance, It’s probably getting close to that. Also, there is a paragraph detailing how some funding may have to come from public loans, could that be local rate payer funded?

Yes the risks are eye watering but in fairness, in this document at least, they have outlined a number of get outs for the project before any significant investment is made. Namely that the current procurement process is far from certain and they will only pursue an FBC if the results of the process show the airport is viable and that the costs aren’t prohibitive.

I suppose nothing we didn’t already speculate about.

Guppy · Dec 1, 2023

Yorkshire Post

Nice to see an article from Yorkshire Post that appears a bit more balanced. From looking at its comments on Facebook it has certainly got the masses thinking twice about if this is good use of funding.

pug · Dec 1, 2023

Guppy said:
Yorkshire Post

Nice to see an article from Yorkshire Post that appears a bit more balanced. From looking at its comments on Facebook-- it has certainly got the masses thinking twice about if this is good use of funding.

Yes, I think the longer this drags on the less inclined people are going to be to support it. Clearly the vast amounts required to get it reopened is beginning to dawn on them.

Obviously you still have the squabbling few, but they mostly have no clue what they’re on about.

Guppy · Dec 4, 2023

Now we have local mp, nick fletcher getting himself all worked up, who needs TV for entertainment

“
OUR AIRPORT

This is a long article. It’s also a very important article. This is very serious. It’s about 222 seconds in Sheffield.

On 14th November our Mayor went to Sheffield. She went to a meeting held by the Mayor of South Yorkshire to approve how the HS2 money was to be spent. You will recall the additional sum of £543 million granted to him due to HS2.

The agenda for that meeting is here:

South Yorkshire MCA

governance.southyorkshire-ca.gov.uk

His responsibilities include the economic regeneration of South Yorkshire. This is even more important now the Government has made South Yorkshire an Investment Zone. He holds the devolved powers for that as well as the funds that go with those government powers.

We all know of the Mayor of Doncaster Council’s determination to “throw the kitchen sink” at getting the airport reopened. See post of hers on 30th October 2022:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=661165918791437&id=100046941052068

Would she be asking for the £1.45 billion to be used to securing our airport’s future? That’s the very least of what any one of us would do if they were throwing the kitchen sink at it.

Sadly no. She did no such thing. In fact it’s worse than that.

The proposal she went to vote on had nothing to do with the airport at all. Link is here:

South Yorkshire MCA

governance.southyorkshire-ca.gov.uk

Instead it was to spend £596 million on trams for Sheffield. £100 million had of course already been taken as a top slice from the first fund.

This new proposal for this extra £496 million was contained in a report before those assembled. It’s item 16 on the agenda. It is entitled “Submission of the Mass Transit Outline Business Case (OBC) to DfT”. Not very transparent title for the public is it? The link is here:

https://governance.southyorkshire-ca.gov.uk/documents/s15298/16.%20Mass%20Transit%20OBC.pdf

£496 million is of course 91.3% of the £543 million.

The Leader of Sheffield City Council not surprisingly said this was an excellent idea and that the trams in Sheffield were “an asset for our region“. (He didn’t explain how that is so given that they come nowhere near Doncaster.) No other elected person spoke.

The Mayor of Doncaster said nothing. Nobody objected to the proposal. Our Mayor literally said nothing at all.

It was put to the vote and all agreed that £596 million should be spent on Sheffield’s Supertrams. That additional £496 million is nearly all of the HS2 windfall. The video of that meeting is below. All 3 minutes and 42 seconds.

222 seconds to give Sheffield £596 million.

Our share should always be 22% given our share of the population. Our percentage of that colossal sum is £131+ million. Will that be treated like the last £100 million that Sheffield took as a top slice?

The commercial benefit to the economy is measured by Gross Value Added (GVA). GVA is the value generated by any unit engaged in the production of goods and services.The higher the better.

The tram project proposed and adopted will deliver a GVA of £119 million. £426-£376 net benefit is 50m plus 69m of the wider economic benefits makes 119m. (Page 4 of the report in the table)

The airport if reopened will generate a GVA of £1,560 million. Over 13 times more benefit to the economy than the trams can deliver.

This £1.56 billion is the figure contained in the two reports published by CDC in July and September this year. https://doncaster.moderngov.co.uk/documents/g4600/Public reports pack 20th-Sep-2023 10.00 Cabinet.pdf?T=10

The £119 million is the figure in the report before them at this meeting.

This is very worrying indeed. Why would anyone spend such colossal sums on trams when the airport remains at large. What reason can justify such a choice?

Surely the first priority is to focus on the airport which will be by their own calculations over 13 times better for the economy than trams in Sheffield.

Devolution has been a disaster for Doncaster. We have seen powers not exercised. We have seen the airport not supported. We have seen it close and now we have this. Trams or planes?

It’s clear to me that this new money is burning a hole in this Sheffield born and raised South Yorkshire Mayor’s pockets. He’s using it for his favourite pet project. Sheffield and its trams.

No regard for the airport. No regard for the economy he’s responsible for regenerating. It’s very clear that we need to shine a spotlight on their activities. Buried deep in the agenda with a misleading title. Very little publicity about this and it slips through in 222 seconds.

I am aware that anyone posting any criticism of the elected Mayors in the Airport group are being banned from it. Apparently it’s against the rules to question anything they do. I myself (the MP for the Airport) am prevented from posting on that group.

There is some light though. Not all of this money has been spent and I truly hope that our Mayor will stand up for Doncaster. Let’s make sure we get our fair share of the funds. Let’s make sure that these two Mayors rescue the airport and get it reopened and thriving as soon as possible.

I will continue to press and Speak Up Doncaster.

#SaveDSA #StrongVoiceForDoncaster #Doncasterisgreat

pug · Dec 4, 2023

It’s a great way of not playing politics whilst undeniably playing politics! Anyone would think there are elections round the corner…

Appreciate the Mayors need to be held to some account, but I would say more by offering a balanced view of what is actually happening and not just trying to confuse people by mentioning CSTR this and Gainshare that. Invariably Government funded schemes are by their nature bureaucratic and difficult to understand. What I think everyone wants to know is where is the money coming from and how much will it cost!

Apparently the question time audience were much less vociferous in their support for DSA as certain groups would have you believe, and in fact most people are quite ambivalent to it on the whole.

White Heather · Dec 4, 2023

Lots more people and voters in Sheffield, and public transport is all politicians favourite topic, along with bike lanes. At least they're not spending the money on them!

Clearly the view is that trams are politically correct and will earn more votes than blowing a huge amount on an airport that might turn out to be a White Elephant mark II. Imagine the fallout down the line if they spent all that money on an airport that failed again?

Interesting the the Doncaster Mayor said nowt though. It makes you wonder if, behind the scenes, the optimism re DSA has changed . If it has, it won't be the first time that Fletcher has been unaware and kept out if the picture. It's his regular complaint. It seems he's well out of the picture.

I admire his passion even if it's misplaced in the case of DSA. I wish he was up here in Leeds where MPs generally take the polar opposite views to him when it comes to our airport.

Seasider · Dec 5, 2023

I'm looking forward to this topic closing, just like DSA

A400 · Dec 6, 2023

Would you rather it not be discussed? as that’s what this thread is for!

Seasider · Dec 6, 2023

I am all for discussion, it is just that this does not seem to be going anywhere.
It is over 12 months since flights stopped it has not been announced that there is anybody interested in taking the airport on.
I am no expert in these matters, but I think that the longer it is closed, the harder it will be to attract airlines.

pug · Dec 6, 2023

Seasider said:
I am all for discussion, it is just that this does not seem to be going anywhere.
It is over 12 months since flights stopped it has not been announced that there is anybody interested in taking the airport on.
I am no expert in these matters, but I think that the longer it is closed, the harder it will be to attract airlines.

There are still sporadic announcements being made by the Mayor of Doncaster. Today the Cabinet ratified the submission of the OBC to SYMCA to draw upon funding channels available, if approved by SYMCA (which it will, I have no doubt), it will then require a FBC to be submitted to release the funding.

Risks as outlined in the briefing pack ahead of todays meeting:

Costs may still be prohibitive - private sector will want a level of de-risk by public funding

May not be market support in actuality

It’s not gone away yet. If it does reopen I hope it works and would support it, but it needs very credible backers and huge financial outlay to even scratch the surface and claim market share.

Seasider · Dec 7, 2023

I wonder how many people have stopped flying since DSA closed?
Apart from the people in Doncaster, it is unlikely that people from "outlying areas" will return as they will have got used to using MAN/EMA/LBA.

pug · Dec 9, 2023

Seasider said:
I wonder how many people have stopped flying since DSA closed?
Apart from the people in Doncaster, it is unlikely that people from "outlying areas" will return as they will have got used to using MAN/EMA/LBA.

Whilst you know I agree, I think a key to success in the airline sector would be attracting a couple of operators where their name alone can get market share for Doncaster. I’m thinking a base from easyjet and TUI.

Have talked about the challenges numerous times over the years, and they do still stand. However, if easyjet could replicate the success of TUI (and run concurrently) then you would have a successful airport. Think this was the plan for Wizz UK but obviously that didn’t work out. This will rely on who the operator is almost as much as whether there is a market big enough. I have no doubt TUI would return if the airport does reopen.

Cargo is not viable in my view, short of some niche markets like what was served before.

What it will come down to is not just how much is on offer from the local authority to de risk it, but also how much genuine and tangible interest there is from the airline market to enter into an agreement to operate from a reopened DSA. LBA management will no doubt have a few market leaders in their crosshairs too.

Interesting times.

pug · Dec 20, 2023

I see with the disappointing news that LPL is to lose its Frankfurt service has been jumped on by the politically motivated Save DSA group to attempt to yet again hit out at Peels inability to sustain contracts.

Here’s a thought. How about using the platform for good, well researched information and not to spread utter drivel.

Obviously passed them by that BRS has also lost its service. Last I checked that is NOT a Peel airport. Not to mention that such deals are not with Peel themselves (who happen to own less than 50% of the business) but they are with the business itself.

How do I know this? I have seen a number of commercial agreements between operator and airports Peel are involved in.

Need say no more. I do hear momentum is being gained behind the scenes, but it will come down to how much is available to an operator to de-risk the proposal. It is extremely high risk.

White Heather · Dec 20, 2023

Meanwhile up the road at LBA, which the DSA supporters seem desperate to see fail, work has started on a 100,000 square foot extension followed by a total reconfiguration of the existing terminal. And later, up to 10 more aircraft stands, bringing the total to 34. This year LBA should pass it's previous highest ever passenger total (4m) by quite some margin, with further growth next year. East Midlands is hardly standing still and MAN just grows and grows.

So yes, any attempt to re-open DSA in a year or two just as LBA develops further and with the MAN airport group growing to the West and South is a very high risk. Some might say foolhardy and potentially a huge waste of millions of pounds of the Council Tax payers money at a time when Councils across the country are claiming they can't manage financially, with some going bust.

White Heather · Dec 21, 2023

Guppy said:
Now we have local mp, nick fletcher getting himself all worked up, who needs TV for entertainment

“
OUR AIRPORT

This is a long article. It’s also a very important article. This is very serious. It’s about 222 seconds in Sheffield.

On 14th November our Mayor went to Sheffield. She went to a meeting held by the Mayor of South Yorkshire to approve how the HS2 money was to be spent. You will recall the additional sum of £543 million granted to him due to HS2.

The agenda for that meeting is here:

South Yorkshire MCA

governance.southyorkshire-ca.gov.uk

His responsibilities include the economic regeneration of South Yorkshire. This is even more important now the Government has made South Yorkshire an Investment Zone. He holds the devolved powers for that as well as the funds that go with those government powers.

We all know of the Mayor of Doncaster Council’s determination to “throw the kitchen sink” at getting the airport reopened. See post of hers on 30th October 2022:

https://m.Facebook--.com/story.php?story_fbid=661165918791437&id=100046941052068

Would she be asking for the £1.45 billion to be used to securing our airport’s future? That’s the very least of what any one of us would do if they were throwing the kitchen sink at it.

Sadly no. She did no such thing. In fact it’s worse than that.

The proposal she went to vote on had nothing to do with the airport at all. Link is here:

South Yorkshire MCA

governance.southyorkshire-ca.gov.uk

Instead it was to spend £596 million on trams for Sheffield. £100 million had of course already been taken as a top slice from the first fund.

This new proposal for this extra £496 million was contained in a report before those assembled. It’s item 16 on the agenda. It is entitled “Submission of the Mass Transit Outline Business Case (OBC) to DfT”. Not very transparent title for the public is it? The link is here:

https://governance.southyorkshire-ca.gov.uk/documents/s15298/16.%20Mass%20Transit%20OBC.pdf

£496 million is of course 91.3% of the £543 million.

The Leader of Sheffield City Council not surprisingly said this was an excellent idea and that the trams in Sheffield were “an asset for our region“. (He didn’t explain how that is so given that they come nowhere near Doncaster.) No other elected person spoke.

The Mayor of Doncaster said nothing. Nobody objected to the proposal. Our Mayor literally said nothing at all.

It was put to the vote and all agreed that £596 million should be spent on Sheffield’s Supertrams. That additional £496 million is nearly all of the HS2 windfall. The video of that meeting is below. All 3 minutes and 42 seconds.

222 seconds to give Sheffield £596 million.

Our share should always be 22% given our share of the population. Our percentage of that colossal sum is £131+ million. Will that be treated like the last £100 million that Sheffield took as a top slice?

The commercial benefit to the economy is measured by Gross Value Added (GVA). GVA is the value generated by any unit engaged in the production of goods and services.The higher the better.

The tram project proposed and adopted will deliver a GVA of £119 million. £426-£376 net benefit is 50m plus 69m of the wider economic benefits makes 119m. (Page 4 of the report in the table)

The airport if reopened will generate a GVA of £1,560 million. Over 13 times more benefit to the economy than the trams can deliver.

This £1.56 billion is the figure contained in the two reports published by CDC in July and September this year. https://doncaster.moderngov.co.uk/documents/g4600/Public reports pack 20th-Sep-2023 10.00 Cabinet.pdf?T=10

The £119 million is the figure in the report before them at this meeting.

This is very worrying indeed. Why would anyone spend such colossal sums on trams when the airport remains at large. What reason can justify such a choice?

Surely the first priority is to focus on the airport which will be by their own calculations over 13 times better for the economy than trams in Sheffield.

Devolution has been a disaster for Doncaster. We have seen powers not exercised. We have seen the airport not supported. We have seen it close and now we have this. Trams or planes?

It’s clear to me that this new money is burning a hole in this Sheffield born and raised South Yorkshire Mayor’s pockets. He’s using it for his favourite pet project. Sheffield and its trams.

No regard for the airport. No regard for the economy he’s responsible for regenerating. It’s very clear that we need to shine a spotlight on their activities. Buried deep in the agenda with a misleading title. Very little publicity about this and it slips through in 222 seconds.

I am aware that anyone posting any criticism of the elected Mayors in the Airport group are being banned from it. Apparently it’s against the rules to question anything they do. I myself (the MP for the Airport) am prevented from posting on that group.

There is some light though. Not all of this money has been spent and I truly hope that our Mayor will stand up for Doncaster. Let’s make sure we get our fair share of the funds. Let’s make sure that these two Mayors rescue the airport and get it reopened and thriving as soon as possible.

I will continue to press and Speak Up Doncaster.

#SaveDSA #StrongVoiceForDoncaster #Doncasterisgreat

So here's the thing!

He claims (or some consultant does) that a re- opened DSA will add £1560m to the local GVA.
Where do they get these lunatic figures from? The airport, reopened was forecast to achieve 2m pax in 10 years I believe? That's half of LBAs current passenger figures in 2023. LBA are currently expanding and anticipate passenger throughput of 7m p.a by 2030. That, they say, will bring an annual £940m to the local economy, a full £620m LESS with 3.5 times as many passengers as DSA.

There's no reason to suspect LBA are deliberately playing down the financial benefits to the local economy, but every reason to suspect someone is exaggerating the impact of DSA. Even with some cargo, if LBA with 7m pax per year generates £940m GVA, no way in this world will DSA, even with 2m pax per year and limited freight, generate £1.65bn GVA. It's Cloud Cuckoo Land stuff.

A new airport.... South Yorkshire Airport City?

Doncaster Sheffield Airport Strategic Review Announcement

pug

Stagman

pug

pug

Snackbar

pug

Guppy

pug

Guppy

South Yorkshire MCA

South Yorkshire MCA

pug

White Heather

Seasider

A400

Seasider

pug

Seasider

pug

pug

White Heather

White Heather

South Yorkshire MCA

South Yorkshire MCA

Upload Media

Similar threads

Latest Airport News

Upgrade Your Account

NEW - Profile Posts

Trending Hashtags

Advertisement

Share this page

Connect with us

A new airport.... South Yorkshire Airport City?

Doncaster Sheffield Airport Strategic Review Announcement​

Upload Media

Similar threads

Log in

Upgrade Your Account

Trending Hashtags

Advertisement

Doncaster Sheffield Airport Strategic Review Announcement