so that will leave them with thomsons and wizz air then, doesnt look good.

thats twice now easy jet has tried to make a go of it at donny i think?
 
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I bet Ryanair take on Gerona again as they have kept ALC going over this summer, though i also hope that HUY management are in talks with FR with a view to some summer sun routes, FlyBE have yet to state their intentions (after a very successful AGP trial) for next year and as yet nothing has been announced.
 
Yes, they came in right at the start doing ski flights and scrapped them very quickly again. I can't see them coming back for a 3rd time. This airport must be only viable at all due to TOM and Wizz, and certainly if TOM ever decided to leave, the future for DSA would be bleak. They need a lot more scheduled services, but its hard to see them coming given the consistent failure of most of those that have been operated to date.
 
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The move by Ezy into LBA must be a slap in the face for DSA management. Both easyjet and Peel/VAS must have made a substantial investment to attract them, so does anyone think it speaks volumes about the set up in Yorkshire? I seem to remember that before DSA was built people were saying how LBA would close due to DSA's better geographical location. When you have quotes of jobs and long runways, it seems you can sway the majority and the opinions of other, more informed people, get left out in the cold.
 
pug said:
The move by Ezy into LBA must be a slap in the face for DSA management. Both easyjet and Peel/VAS must have made a substantial investment to attract them, so does anyone think it speaks volumes about the set up in Yorkshire? I seem to remember that before DSA was built people were saying how LBA would close due to DSA's better geographical location. When you have quotes of jobs and long runways, it seems you can sway the majority and the opinions of other, more informed people, get left out in the cold.

I agree and without wishing the airport to fail I never thought it would be a success and I remember saying the same about the DSA airport prior to it's opening. All the hype and focus on it's runway has proved a huge flop for the airport company. I always thought it would take at least a decade for the airport to become a success and the recession has probably added a second decade to that. I hope I am proved wrong for the sake of the people that work there.
 
pug said:
The move by Ezy into LBA must be a slap in the face for DSA management. Both easyjet and Peel/VAS must have made a substantial investment to attract them, so does anyone think it speaks volumes about the set up in Yorkshire? I seem to remember that before DSA was built people were saying how LBA would close due to DSA's better geographical location. When you have quotes of jobs and long runways, it seems you can sway the majority and the opinions of other, more informed people, get left out in the cold.

The aircraft used to operate the DSA services this summer was a LPL machine with LPL crews. So far as Peel or Easyjet were concerned it wasn't a massive investment at all as they had the aircraft and crew anyway, it just operated out of a different 'Peel' airport. Now the aircraft has gone back into LPL, that airport is seeing new routes and frequencies (Brussels, Tallin, Grenoble, Salzburg are new and extra flights to Madrid, Belfast, Berlin and Barcelona). Of course for DSA, it was a setback as they readily admit themselves, but they don't 'own' the corporate relationship - that sits with VAS/Peel who I think will be too devastated if they've still got the business at LPL.

Assuming no new routes or airlines, DSA will be still be comfortably busier than HUY and MME and no worse off than it was last year, so I don't think it is doomed just yet.
 
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Doomed no, saturated yes.

My argument is, and always has been, that DSA simply wasnt needed when it finally came along. Had the RAF left in 1990 and the airport opened in 97/98 i think it would be a different story, im afraid circumstances changed in the five years from the plans being mooted to the opening day. What exactly does the airport offer that LBA, EMA and HUY wouldnt have offered otherwise? They did a good job of attracting TOM as it meant people going on a Thomson holiday from Yorkshire were likely to go through DSA.

The problem lies with seat only and business type destinations. Easyjet was a chance for DSA to stretch their muscles in the seat only sector and what can they take away from it? Well for a start high frequency flights (such as AMS) had been going out with load factors as low as 50% some months. Im aware that flight times were'nt the best, but clearly the airline didnt see moving them to a better time as being viable. As for the other routes, around 80% load factors in the summer months aint too bad, but ive been told yields were'nt great. Afterall, did someone from EZY not say on Look North that they saw West Yorkshire as better pickings than South Yorkshire? I think its worth pointing out that the Aer Lingus flights have been going out at 30% load factors. If i put it into perspective, the old 2xdaily Gill/Airfrance route from HUY used to have LF of 40 to 60% per month, alongside the 3-4xdaily KLM flights, and HUY is supposed to be a small market. Had they put the same effort into SZD then im sure that would have the right business flights for Sheffield due to conveniance of the location.

Im also not suggesting Peel/VAS will be too devastated, but it does pose the question about what VAS will do with DSA. They obviously bought their shares due to LPL, and have said they will put a lot of effort into MME, but they are yet to make any announcement about DSA.

As for passenger figures, yes that is fine quoting those statistics, but when an airport is reported to be losing a lot of money it puts it into perspective. HUY will have far more movements than DSA next year in total, and despite making its first loss last year for over a decade, it has a good track record of returning a profit to its shareholders. Remember also that FlyBE had a very successful route to AGP over the summer, despite us being told there was no market for such flights, so there is a chance for more from them next year also.
 
One thing that should be remembered is that HUY has been there for decades now - whereas DSA has just been built at huge cost. Peel would have had a business case which outlined the pay back period for their investment and I doubt they are anywhere near what they expected. Since opening, they are, in reality, in a worse position now than they were in their first couple of years, since TOM withdrew their LOCO operation to concentrate on IT charters, whilst every other airline other than WIZZ has either withdrawn, or reduced its operations from the airport. They have also failed to attract major cargo carriers on a regular basis. The question is now whether more money is thrown at the airport in the hope of turning things round, or whether they cut their losses. Peel have just announced a record loss at their main airport LPL, so in general, things are none too clever at the moment. It will be interesting to see what comes of the negotiations with 'another carrier' that DSA mentioned in their response to EZY going into LBA. Negotiations do not necessarily mean anything will happen. I would suspect any airline given the option of piggybacking on the success of LBA or taking a risk at DSA, would opt for the safe option.

Despite the fact that DSA is undoubtedly a lovely airport (and so it should be), I have to agree that it was never required in the first place and I still hold the view that it is located too far from the main areas of population it is supposed to serve. It is just as easy for Sheffield folk to head South, West or North to the other three regional airports, and I fear that it will remain very much in the mould of Durham Tees Valley - under-used and something of a White Elephant. To me, the future of DSA rests with what Thomson decide to do in the future, and that is not a healthy position to be in.
 
There's more the enough demand in the region to support more than one airport. LBA isn't perfect, but its close enough to the main populatation centres to do OK in spite of its foibles. But it won't pick up much traffic from the South and the East and the runway is marginal for long haul. The North West has two main airports, so has the Midlands, so has Central Scotland....
So, is 'Yorkshire Plc' happy to see huge leakage out to Manchester and East Midlands, or should it encourage the development of a second airport to compliment LBA and help Yorkshire be more accessible to intenational business & tourism and help prove the case the aviation can succeed in Yorkshire. If you agree, then what ever your local fraternity connections to HUY or West vs South Yorks rivalries are, no one would seriously suggest that HUY is a better alternative to DSA as Yorkshire's 2nd airport. It just isn't. I'm sure it has many merits for GA, oil etc, it has been clear for years that it's never going to attract much in the way of commercial passenger traffic. Yorkshire deserves better than one half decent airport on a hill and a flying club / heliport by the seaside surely?
 
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  • #50
Yorkshire deserves better than one half decent airport on a hill and a flying club / heliport by the seaside surely?

Best speak to the post war planners about that. If you want mor info then PM me by all means.

Yorkshire PLC? Please tell me why they haven supported EZY during their time at DSA??? As for long-haul, you must be having a laugh. MAN is the only airport in the north that will deal with substantial long-haul routes.

Flying club/heliport by the sea? Time to do some research, again im happy to PM you any info you need.

Do you actually work in aviation at all? Clearly you are not too sure about how it works perhaps outside of LBA!

No one is claiming to be biased towatds one against the other! Why do you think i (being from Hull) believe LBA is the only airport in Yorkshire and the Humber that will actually do well? You mention the midlands, yet do you consider how close EMA is to Sheffield? Thats not including the connectivity to MAN. More attention should have been put on SZD, im sure the runway could have been extended and infrastructure put in place for half of the ammount Peel spent on DSA! Would they have done that? Well do you honestly think DSA would be open now had Peel not gained control of SZD? Talk about inheriting the best development land on the M1 for a £1! Work it out, Peel have never been in the business for airports...

Im sorry but your argument is nothing short of poor. I mean no offence but you clearly havent had 'all' of the information. HUY could have comfortably handled any 'bucket and spade' flights that south Yorkshire could not have done. DSA is in the wrong place, has two companies competing, with Bridgepoint putting Tony Hallwood in the driving seat of one, and all of the problems (and some) was highlighted at the public enquiry, but fell on death ears. The airlines have taken a strategic stance, for example, FR (who were long rumoured to base at DSA) have since created a substantial base at EMA and LBA. Jet2 have based at EMA and openly said they have no interest in DSA. EZY were based at EMA (inherited from 'GO Fly') and have tested the market at DSA only to find it doesnt work. s for what im told about KLM, they have no interest in DSA at all, the passengers come from the core Humberside region and thats where they will continue to serve, not least because other airlinesx have wanted to get in only to be turned away.

Youre argument just does not hold weight, im sorry but you dont appear to have an understanding of the situation.
 
LS16 - when it comes to Aviation, you can forget Yorkshire and Lancashire or the North East and North West. We all know there is a boundary running the length of the Pennines and on the other side si the 'dark side' but airlines do not care. All they see is that at MAN, there is a top class airport that most of Yorkshire can get to in 90mins, with 2 long runways and an established infrastructure. Most airlines already have a presence there. MAN is therefore the long haul airport for the entire North of England, not just the North West. LBA, and LPL pick up much of the shorter haul flights to cater for the people who want to travel from their local airport, and it is this type of operation that is vital to the success of the smaller, local aiports. Neither Doncaster nor Durham Tees Valley have had any sustained success in attracting the type of operation that enables a smaller regional airport to develop. It is no co-incidence that neither are well located, whereas LBA (top of hill notwithstanding) and LPL are both situated close to large populations and surrounded by many cities or small towns. Surely that tells you something?

When Peel opened DSA, they proclaimed that its long runway would lead to it becoming the long haul airport of the Yorkshire and Midlands regions. This,despite a lot of evidence put forward at the public enquiry form the aviation industry stating it would not happen. Still, they invested heavily and have so far proven that they got it horribly wrong. Despite the fact that Yorkshrie has lots of demand for long haul flying, that demand is likely to continue to be satisfied from MAN for the forseeable future.

Unless airlines can see that passengers will abandon existing offerings from EMA, MAN, LBA and HUY to fly instead from DSA, they are not going to take the risk of investing there, particularly when various airlines have already tried, and failed. It takes more than Sheffield in the name to get Sheffield people to use the airport in preference to others, and unless the flights are there to choose from (which in general they are not), interest in the airport will quickly diminish. Drive around Sheffield today and you will find lots of adverts for Manchester and East Midlands, together with airlines such as Ryanair and Jet2 operating from LBA, MAN and EMA. There is virtually nothing about DSA.

Personally, my annoyance at DSA is simply based on the fact that its arrival resulted in a step backwards for LBA just at a time when it should have been making major steps forward (due to the loss of TOM). I feel that way as I have fought for years for LBA. Having said that I would love to see DSA and LBA and HUY all operating to capacity, providing Yorkshire people with a mixture of all the long and short haul routes we demand, but frankly, it isn't going to happen any time soon, if at all. MAN is like an aviation black hole, with the aviation world being sucked in towards it. That leaves a certain market for the more successful regional airports to concentrate on and the others are going to struggle.
 
Hi Heather - you're right about MAN of course, but let's not forget that theyhandled 17.5m pax in 1999 and its latest 12 month total is 17.8m. Considering the investment and the bold claims made at the time of the second runway, that's a failure that is in a different leagure to what ever might be going on at DSA. And MAN's lack of growth is hugely important to what has been happening at LBA because, exactly to your point, the bigger MAN is, the more it suffocates the other neighouring airports. So, as a fellow 'fan' of LBA, I'm personally pleased that MAN is stiil stuck at 1999 traffic levels and isn't achieving the 35 million passengers it promised by now at the time of the public enquiry into R2. Which also means that I have a degreee of admiration for Peel because I believe it was their investment in LPL and the impact they had on Manchester's business and its growth prospects, that was the real 'game changer' in loosening MAN's grip on the entire North. 10 years ago, anyone predicting that the biggest airport in the North for flights to Eastern Europe, Berlin or Madrid would be LPL and not MAN would have been carted off by the men in white coats, yet it's happening. I won't pretend I wasn't concerned that DSA would be a threat to LBA, but I also believed that DSA was as much about taking on MAN and other MAN owned airports on this side of the Pennines. It's interesting that if you look at the size of the Northern airports at the exact moment DSA opened and compare it to today, then MAN, EMA and HUY are handling fewer and LPL, LBA (and obviously DSA) are busier. So, my view is well done to Peel. I think they've been a thorn in the side for MAN and the MAG Group, I think what they achieved at LPL gave confidence to other airports and airlines that the North didn't just mean MAN for aviaiton and I think the commitment to DSA was a positive statement about the opportunity for growth in aviation in Yorkshire. Ultimately, I think LBA has benefited from all three of these.

Anyway, all just opinions at the end of the day, but a good discussion.
 
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LS16, you do raise some interesting points, and i can see where you're coming from.

I believe what held LBA back against MAN was the owners and lack of foresight. Now that they have Bridgepoint (whatever your views on them) and Tony Hallwood behind them they are making up for lost time. I dont think that is directly connected to Peel or LPL/MAN.

Whilst i agree Peel facilitated the growth of LPL, it was infact Easyjet who saw the potential to offer cheap flights from a secondary airport where they could pay next to nothing for using it and keep fares down. Believe it or not, i have been told that Stelios also looked at using HUY, but was duly turned away. Dont forget BAe owned LPL when EZY came in, so they could offer more incentives than a cash strapped council run organisation (which MAG is in essence anyway) as HUY was becoming profitable and their route structure was growing at a sustainable rate at the time.

I would argue that although LPL and LBA have grown in recent years, the slower groth at MAN is a bad sign. Clearly MA was late getting on the low-cost bandwagon, so missed out on much of the growth, but also it has eaten away at the critical mass and so the long-haul offering has contracted significantly. This is not good news as i believe MAN is the only airport that can hope to offer any meaningful long-haul services from the north. Most people in the north are also within a two hour drive from MAN anyway, and the rail links are excellent, so most of that market should be centred around MAN to stop further fragmentation and airlines giving up on the north and moving routes back to London, as has already started happening. Neither LPL or DSA can hope to attract such services, and LBA will be heavily restricted in this market, with perhaps a couple of routes to say New York and Dubai at a push.

There are some question marks regarding the opening of DSA, it did qualify for quite a substantial grant from the EU, which i doubt had it not been granted Peel would have invested in the full lot. There are questions being raised about this due to a code which says that any money given towards the development of an airport will only be granted if the airport is not within (i think) 50 miles of another one... Add to that the closure of a perfectly good modern airport near the centre of Sheffield, which just needed that bit of private investment to get going, and i think its clear why people are not happy with the way things had panned out. MAN had shown interest in Finningley themselves, but had decided that the cost of building such a facility was not viable and so bought into HUY (and later EMA/BOH in a package) instead.

It is also worth pointing out that, despite the apparant success of LPL, it has yet to make any money. Despite reporting growth it is still making heavy losses, as for DSA, if LPL is that bad then i cannot see DSA fairing any better. I do believe that Peel/VAS may be able to attract some of the lost EZY routes back for next summer. They claim they are talking to an airline and are 'confident' that these talks will be fruitful. Who knows? Going to have to wait and see i suppose, but that still doesnt answer the need for the airport in the first place. Airlines were clearly not queing up to use the place despite what was said at the time, and the number of airlines that 'supported' the venture. Unfortunately passengers are voting with their feet and using alternative departure points, which suggests there is a far more fundamental issue with DSA.
 
easyJet this afternoon operated their final flight from Doncaster Airport. The flight departed Robin Hood for Amsterdam.
 
Not a good day at all for the airport but we know that all low cost operators are fickle these days. They have very short term memories. Easyjet could come back in the not too distant future. Ryanair could up sticks at EMA or LBA if they don't get their own way and move to DSA who knows.

It's a sad day nonetheless, hopefully something else will come up for the airport.
 
This is the DSA thread , above two posts are not about routes by Easyjet from this airport, bit confusing .
 

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