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[TheLocalYokel]

It is a common requirement with employment or service involving sensitive matters, typically any connection to The Crown generally requires either an enhanced security check if regular contact is likely or the signature upon an extract of the Official Secrets Act if it deemed necessary.

I signed it twice, cannot elaborate because of it being sensitive, however it was made clear I was bound for life not to disclose the nature of my endeavours.

Indeed. I can see sense in positive vetting or security vetting (with its varying levels) although history tells us the process missed some big fish who went on to betray real state secrets to unfriendly powers. Governments though sometimes hide behind the Official Secrets Act to prevent public disclosure of matters that are merely embarrassing or inconvenient to the government.

These days the UK Government is willing to make public the various vetting procedures which is a positive step.

National security vetting: clearance levels

www.gov.uk

 

[Poshgirl]

JennyJet is correct.

In my last job, processing Government security clearance applications, would be very rich if I'd received a £ for every time I explained why all the forms had to be completed. Still the Head of Security (my boss) insisted on trying to change a client's formal process. There was an OSA form which had to be completed when someone left. It was then withdrawn, to simplify the process but my employer wanted it retained. Then they had a habit of trying to rewrite everything to suit themselves!

Most project info reached the public domain anyway (legitimately!) so there was very little that needed high level protection. Most applications for one vetting level, which gave greater flexibility for our project teams. No more completing a form each time they visited a base. Of course, a lot of bases had differing security rules depending on what was done there.

The process is not 100% watertight for a number of reasons. Perhaps human frailty is an adequate description. You'd be amazed (or not!) the excuses used to not complete application forms, failure to read instructions/clearance letters, assuming photopass is clearance. Of course, the higher the clearance level, the more personal info is required (domestic arrangements, finances, political persuasion). I could write a book about it but would have to be classified as fiction, as I'm still bound by OSA!!

Vetting levels have been in the public domain for a while, especially when the application process went online. Unfortunately, whether Government minister or civil servant, there's still differing levels of personal intelligence/common sense that can provide that media "scoop". It's a different matter when some deliberately flout the rules....

 

[TheLocalYokel]

What both you and JENNY have said in response to my earlier post is of course quite right but I was making the point that everyone is subject to the Official Secrets Act whether they have 'signed' it or not. Press reports sometimes give the impression that only those who have 'signed' the Act are bound by it.

Many thanks to you both.

 

[Poshgirl]

TLY, valid point but how many people know/realise that.

If I did a poll of family, friends and neighbours wonder how many would know what I'm talking about, not to mention whether they're bound by it. One neighbour works in IT recruitment so knows about clearance levels. His wife is a teacher so also knows about clearance but may not be familiar with OSA requirements. My late uncle worked for a well-known glass manufacturer so knew all about OSA, as did his best friend who served in the RAF.

We know that our friends in the media only scratch the surface (at best!). Unfortunately, as has been demonstrated during the pandemic, there are always those who don't understand, can't understand or just won't understand. Then we're getting into a whole different area...

Thanks for "prodding the grey matter"!

 

[Poshgirl]

I should have also added, in my initial response, those who presented the least difficulty were non-UK nationals.

The reason, they were used to form filling and legal requirements in their home countries, to obtain items such as identity cards. Therefore, clearance forms posed no threat to their civil rights. They were used to the formality (as one Italian described it).

A few UK nationals used every whim at their disposal to avoid getting clearance. I even had to resort to explaining the physical security used to ensure their application did not get into the wrong hands.

If the UK Government enforced such requirements, there would still be objectors despite what they or the media said....

 

[JENNYJET]

Fortunate that we never had a situation like East Berlin here in UK. Every move, every word uttered and not knowing what your family members knew about your activities or how deep the Stasi got into an individual's life.

Sometimes, State security can go too far unlike here in Blighty where it is discreet from the perspective of citizens and very lax according perhaps to immigrants from Eastern Europe. UK security has had a few 'oopsies ' in recent times, London Borough market and Manchester arena or Westminster Bridge being amongst them.

As TLY stated, we do not sign every piece of Law as it is assumed that ignorance is no defence or an excuse to violate.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

As this is an aviation forum it's pertinent to mention that the Official Secrets Acts also deal inter alia with offences relating to a 'prohibited place' which can include military establishments such as airfields.

An innocent 'spotter' armed with camera near such a place might not in the end be prosecuted but could find themselves subject to interrogation and possible arrest in order to establish their purpose for being there.

 

[Kevin Farnell]

As this is an aviation forum it's pertinent to mention that the Official Secrets Acts also deal inter alia with offences relating to a 'prohibited place' which can include military establishments such as airfields.

An innocent 'spotter' armed with camera near such a place might not in the end be prosecuted but could find themselves subject to interrogation and possible arrest in order to establish their purpose for being there.

Many years back, I recall hearing of spotters at CDG having the film ripped out of their cameras by French Police.
Also, some years ago, an F-18 (may have been YF-17) crashed while departing Farnborough after the airshow. A spotter had photographed it's departure and crash. Again, a Police Officer ripped the film out of the camera. I believe that the Officer was reprimanded for destroying evidence that could have proved helpful in determining the cause of the accident.

Kevin

 

[JENNYJET]

I recall an incident where I was detained by airport police for being on the SGB site, in the sight of ATC. It was dark, frosty and I waiting for the Alitalia A300 to land, it's first visit. What upset the authorities was my long lens on my old Zenit camera and they could not understand why I was also out during a freezing cold evening on private property overlooking the Elmdon terminal ( the new facility had not been initiated ) . Irish terrorism was prevalent in those days, and my background of Irish parentage was enough to check me out. In addition, I had travelled in from Belfast recently ( for pleasure ) and no one took a holiday to that place in those days.

A few checks followed to establish identity and Bona Fides re. Spotting and interests etc., I was released with a stern warning as to my future conduct.

 

[Kevin Farnell]

Just to even things up, I've had some good experiences with the Police at BHX. The first, was many years ago when I was around 14. This was at the old Elmdon Terminal. We had just come down the spiral steps from the viewing platform, with cameras around our necks (mine a Zenit E with a Chinon 90-190mm zoom and my friend had a Pentax K1000), when a Policeman approached us. He asked 'got any film in your cameras lads?'. I was a bit worried that we may be in trouble, but replies 'yes'. He then informed us that a large German Airforce helicopter would land soon and he even told us where it would land. We ran to the west end of the apron in time to see a CH53 Stallion touch down.
More recently (although still a few years back), I was in the long stay car park, with my Nikon D200, Nikon 70-200 F2.8 lens with 1.4X converter and a monopod. I noticed a Police car driving around the car park. They pulled up to me and were very polite in asking what I was doing. I explained my interest and voluntarily showed them I.D. They wished me good day, left me a contact card and asked if I noticed any suspicious activity would I please report it.
I've always believed that aviation enthusiasts are of benefit to airport security.

Kevin

 

[Poshgirl]

A different experience to that recently posted on this site. As we know, working with spotters is currently low on the agenda.

Although more stringent rules operate at military bases, there seems to be a more profitable relationship with neighbours and spotters. That's because many rely on a civilian supplement to the workforce. Despite their reputation, the US military seem to be the most welcoming. Possibly a throwback to their time over here in WW2. The recent event at Lakenheath served to demonstrate the importance of a civilian spotter's knowledge to prevent a potential loss of life.

From my experiences of visiting military sites, it was disconcerting to be confronted by armed guards at the gate. Strange too that it was a non-operational (not airfield, barracks, naval base) site, but close enough to an operational airfield to warrant that security level. The other strange experience was Catterick, where you can drive through the site to get into Richmond. The different ops there have their own gatehouse/guardroom for gaining entry. Of course, they always know who's coming and at what time! And, having a security clearance that gave you a photopass made life a lot easier.

Would be interesting to know what type of briefing is given to police joining an airport-based unit. Or is it just a sign of the times that law enforcement are no longer prepared to engage with people who can be useful to them?

 

[Aviador]

I think other that being the eyes and ears, aviation enthusiasts will be told nothing. Most things related to security are done on a "need to know" basis.

 

[JENNYJET]

It may be helpful to !members to understand why I am stepping back. I intend to refrain from responding directly to posts as this is mental energy that is currently under strain. I shall respond to any direct question to which I have competence and any personal message. I need to limit expenditure of energy and this message has taken an hour to compose.

Please forgive this negativity in the current season of jollity