Cardiff: Route Development & Rumours

[Jerry]

From next April the long haul rate for every passenger over 16 will be £78 for the lowest rate of travel and £156 for the rest (premium economy, business, club, upper, first - whatever an airline calls it). On a TUI flight to Florida or Mexico that would probably amount to over £15,000, depending on how many youngsters were on the flight.

Would there be a way that BRS could counteract that to keep TUI long haul at BRS if Wales were devolved APD?

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Would there be a way that BRS could counteract that to keep TUI long haul at BRS if Wales were devolved APD?

I suppose they could offer TUI a deal that would leave them no worse off than if they operated from an APD-free CWL but that would cost a lot of money and would probably not be worth it merely to keep a relatively low footfall operation in place.

I think BRS's main problem with an APD-free Wales would be with the likes of KLM where long haul APD is still payable albeit the flights go via an overseas hub. Short haul might not be too bad apart from possibly losing some Ryanair presence given that airline loves to celebrate and reward countries that abolish or substantially reduce APD-type taxes.

 

[Jerry]

It looks like Air Transat have dropped Toronto to Birmingham. It's down on their calendar as 1 weekly on a Wednesday with an A310 sized aircraft. So just asking the question but does anyone think it would be viable from Cardiff?

 

[TheLocalYokel]

It looks like Air Transat have dropped Toronto to Birmingham. It's down on their calendar as 1 weekly on a Wednesday with an A310 sized aircraft. So just asking the question but does anyone think it would be viable from Cardiff?

Transat has operated to Toronto from CWL in the past as did Zoom before it went bust. Zoom also had a route to Vancouver albeit it was a joint route, I think with Gatwick or it might have been with an Irish airport. I might be confusing Gatwick with the Toronto service because I think some Toronto journeys began there and operated via CWL. I'm sure someone will remember.

The Toronto market doesn't seem what it once was though. Currently only LHR, LGW, MAN, EDI, BHX and GLA operate the route. Looking at 2001 for instance these airports all operated the route then but so did ABZ, BFS, BRS, CWL, EXT and NCL.

Not being an airline insider it's impossible to know if the route would be viable these days. It might attract decent loads but we know that doesn't necessarily mean a viable route.

 

[Jerry]

With the addition of Hurghada to TUI winter offerings and Antalya to TCX summer offerings it could suggest a renewed interest by both in offering more choice of destinations from CWL. So in the future what routes could they both possibly add.
For me with TUI I wonder if they could look at Malta and Naples for the summer and maybe Boa Vista/Sal for the winter possibly a couple of 1 off flights similar to BGI and MBJ especially if they start using the Dreamliner more for it than the 757s.

TCX I'm going to suggest Malta, Girona and Hurghada as a summer route and of course Orlando!

 

[Kevin Farnell]

It looks like Air Transat have dropped Toronto to Birmingham. It's down on their calendar as 1 weekly on a Wednesday with an A310 sized aircraft. So just asking the question but does anyone think it would be viable from Cardiff?

The Air Transat operation to BHX was flown with A330's. Only the first and last two flights of the season were operated by A310's. Passenger figures over the last few years have been in the high 80's or even 90 percents.
BHX was unusual in Air Transat's operation, being only served from Toronto (YYZ). All of their other destinations are also served from Montreal and Vancouver.
As such, I think it highly unlikely that Air Transat would drop BHX and start up at CWL especially considering the much greater catchment population of BHX.
As TheLocalYokel said -

The Toronto market doesn't seem what it once was though. Currently only LHR, LGW, MAN, EDI, BHX and GLA operate the route. Looking at 2001 for instance these airports all operated the route then but so did ABZ, BFS, BRS, CWL, EXT and NCL.

The YYZ market has reduced considerably over the years.
In it's heyday, over the years BHX was served by CPAir (DC-8s), Wardair (747s, DC-10s and A310s), Worldways (DC-8s and L1011s), Royal Airlines (B757s and L1011s) and Air Canada (L1011s), several of which competed against each other.

Kevin

 

[Foxlimayankee]

Primera are also starting YYZ at 3x weekly in place of TS with A321neos. Adding to other north American routes already announced. That would've been the perfect setup for CWL but can't see them serving both BHX and CWL. Unless something is pulled out of the bag with Norwegian or Westjet when they get the 737 max, then the options for suitable carriers across the pond are limited.

 

[Ray Finkle]

Nrever say never 🙂

For the next two years Primera Air will increase its presence on the existing bases and open other trans-Atlantic routes, as well as open new bases, as the airlines has 20 new Boeing Max9-ER on order.

https://www.incentivetravel.co.uk/n...-america-destination-from-new-bases-in-europe

 

[Jerry]

Not sure that just because Primera is at BHX that they wouldn't consider Cardiff. As destinations they are 2 different areas and yes there is a slight overlap in catchment areas but I don't think it's enough to put Primera off from basing at both airports. They have MAX 9s on the way and they are are smaller than the A321 so maybe 1 of them would be suitable for CWL.
Also it'll be interesting to see what Norwegian do as at the moment Wales is the only Celtic country it doesn't do TATL from!
Though it would be nice to see them I highly doubt we'll see Air Transat.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

I read this week in the BHX Primera thread that the A321neo long range would only just manage Chicago from BHX's 3,000 metre runway. If that is so only LHR, LGW, STN, MAN and BHX would be able to operate that route from the UK with the type.

Hi there nwoody2001, how are you today, yes the a321 neo long range will just do Chicago with about 240 miles left, so this route is possible if Primera decide to include it. AndyC

What sort of runway length would be required to reach Toronto with this aircraft? CWL's runway is just under 2,400 metres long.

 

[Coathanger16]

I read this week in the BHX Primera thread that the A321neo long range would only just manage Chicago from BHX's 3,000 metre runway.

Not accounting for headwinds but the A321NEO would only just be able to make BHX to Chicago. The A321NEO-LR would be able to make it with just over 1000km spare.

Given a 787 can take off from Bristol to Cancun, I would have thought an A321NEO or -LR would be able to make it from Cardiff to the East Coast of America at least.

Equally, Norwegian operate 737MAX's from Edinburgh (2500m runway) to the US East Cost (the 737MAX's have the same range as the A321NEO and less than the A321NEO-LR).

 

[Silvercity]

Transat has operated to Toronto from CWL in the past as did Zoom before it went bust. Zoom also had a route to Vancouver albeit it was a joint route, I think with Gatwick or it might have been with an Irish airport. I might be confusing Gatwick with the Toronto service because I think some Toronto journeys began there and operated via CWL. I'm sure someone will remember.

The Toronto market doesn't seem what it once was though. Currently only LHR, LGW, MAN, EDI, BHX and GLA operate the route. Looking at 2001 for instance these airports all operated the route then but so did ABZ, BFS, BRS, CWL, EXT and NCL.



Not being an airline insider it's impossible to know if the route would be viable these days. It might attract decent loads but we know that doesn't necessarily mean a viable route.

It was a long time ago but LPL also had a Canadian link with Wardair using DC10s, my ex neighbour flew on, said it was great just caught the local bus to Liverpool Airport and off she went. There did seem a lot more regional flights to Canada at one time.

 

[Silvercity]

The Air Transat operation to BHX was flown with A330's. Only the first and last two flights of the season were operated by A310's. Passenger figures over the last few years have been in the high 80's or even 90 percents.
BHX was unusual in Air Transat's operation, being only served from Toronto (YYZ). All of their other destinations are also served from Montreal and Vancouver.
As such, I think it highly unlikely that Air Transat would drop BHX and start up at CWL especially considering the much greater catchment population of BHX.
As TheLocalYokel said -


The YYZ market has reduced considerably over the years.
In it's heyday, over the years BHX was served by CPAir (DC-8s), Wardair (747s, DC-10s and A310s), Worldways (DC-8s and L1011s), Royal Airlines (B757s and L1011s) and Air Canada (L1011s), several of which competed against each other.

Kevin

CP Air had a fantastic....as a lad I couldn't decide if I preferred their 747 DC10 or DC8-63 ( super stretched version) the best, all looked great !

 

[Jerry]

It would be nice to see a Canadian airline again at CWL. Air Transat would be great but I do wonder if say Westjet or Air Canada would be the better options as they have connection options that Air Transat doesn't. The Canadian regional market though now isn't what it used to be.

 

[Tinkerman]

Interesting that Debra Barber has today indicated that CWL has been approached by new carriers to operate from CWL. I know for a fact that there are a couple on the horizon with new routes (and new carriers) for the not too distant future, but great to see this publicly admitted by a senior airport figure.

Coupled with QR's flights/airport upgrades, some of these potential airlines are something some of us on here could have only dreamed of only a couple of years ago - But hard work pays off !

 

[Jerry]

Are those carriers looking to base? Or would they be more like Vueling and operating into Cardiff?
It is great that new airlines and current ones may now be seeing that CWL has potential and are looking to operate to it and offer more from it.

 

[Tinkerman]

Are those carriers looking to base? Or would they be more like Vueling and operating into Cardiff?
It is great that new airlines and current ones may now be seeing that CWL has potential and are looking to operate to it and offer more from it.

Unfortunately Jerry that is not for public release. But there are promising signs ahead.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

I think the turning point was the Welsh Government's purchase of the airport. I'm not usually a fan of public sector ownership of airports but in CWL's case there was probably no viable alternative at the time.

The next step change will be private sector involvement although the current WG administration insists that they will retain a controlling interest.

 

[Jerry]

Unfortunately Jerry that is not for public release. But there are promising signs ahead.

I understand. Hopefully the airport will announce it all sooner rather than later!
But it is good to know that the future looks promising not only with potential new airlines and routes but with the other parts like the terminal upgrade and potentially a new terminal in the future.

 

[CWL94]

Interesting that Debra Barber has today indicated that CWL has been approached by new carriers to operate from CWL. I know for a fact that there are a couple on the horizon with new routes (and new carriers) for the not too distant future, but great to see this publicly admitted by a senior airport figure.

Coupled with QR's flights/airport upgrades, some of these potential airlines are something some of us on here could have only dreamed of only a couple of years ago - But hard work pays off !

I remember listening to an interview with Roger Lewis on the radio, and he did say that their ambition was to target a link/links to America. He did say it wouldn't be anything until 2019 at the earliest, so maybe there is some legs in that.

It also would help airline conversations if CWL could keep the Iberia link to MAD. It would help show that there is a 'project' at the airport and it's worth investing in. It also helps convince airlines that there is a market at CWL, and the investment is justified. Airlines leaving after a single season can sometimes leave a sour taste when trying to engage with other airlines to operate. I hope IB stick around though and give next summer another try, brand awareness and marketing is the key; we only have to see how VY is performing now to when it was when they first arrived as an example of that!