Random Stuff!!

[Jerry]

Why do you assume you would have virtually the same relationship when outside the UK? Or that the remaining parts of the UK would want to pool resources with an independent Wales? If you want indepdence assume you will be independent, not in some half-arsed arrangement with one foot in and foot out.

Why wouldn't they? Why wouldn't Scotland England and Wales have some sort of defence agreement? Have a common travel area? And want to trade freely with each other?
Or are you suggesting that independence would mean no cooperation at all between the 3 countries that inhabit the island of Great Britain and that cooperation only comes with the price of London rule?

 

[KARFA]

Why wouldn't they? Why wouldn't Scotland England and Wales have some sort of defence agreement? Have a common travel area? And want to trade freely with each other?
Or are you suggesting that independence would mean no cooperation at all between the 3 countries that inhabit the island of Great Britain and that cooperation only comes with the price of London rule?

Why would they? I am not saying no cooperation, just that the suggesting of pooled resources on several areas is an assumption on your part, it may not be what the rest of the UK wants. I am not clear why you are so keen to be free of "London rule" yet you want to get back in to bed with the UK on many issues which will inevitably be based in London with the same people in charge.

I am not sure what other areas you want to pool resources, but you mention defence. Previously you said you were not happy to have to request military help from the UK government to use British armed forces in Wales - but if you pool resources aren't you going right back to that arrangement? It may be a UK-NATO like force but mostly paid for by England, and like NATO effectively controlled by the US as largest contributor, the UK-NATO would be the same.

Common travel area is a given, and the UK already have a common travel area with another independent country.

You will have to ensure you have your own independent institutions in many areas, central bank, independent currency, etc. etc.

 

[Jerry]

I am not clear why you are so keen to be free of "London rule" yet you want to get back in to bed with the UK on many issues which will inevitably be based in London with the same people in charge.

The big massive difference would be that as independent countries we would be partners and would be able to choose what sovereignty we pool if we choose too. If you look at NATO and the EU they are organisations where the individual countries are independent and chosen to join and pool sovereignty even though each organisation has it's more dominant members.
As for currency and central banks yes we would have to choose to setup our own or use the pound or euro which comes with less control but again the choice would be Wales.

 

[KARFA]

The big massive difference would be that as independent countries we would be partners and would be able to choose what sovereignty we pool if we choose too. If you look at NATO and the EU they are organisations where the individual countries are independent and chosen to join and pool

And the remainder of the UK could choose not to is my point. You just keep talking as if pooling on various issues is a unilateral decision by Wales when it clearly isn't, The other parties must also want to do the same for it to happen. The remainder of the UK will make it's own decisions about what is in their interests, and that may not align with what Wales wants.

 

[Jerry]

And the remainder of the UK could choose not to is my point. You just keep talking as if pooling on various issues is a unilateral decision by Wales when it clearly isn't, The other parties must also want to do the same for it to happen. The remainder of the UK will make it's own decisions about what is in their interests, and that may not align with what Wales wants.

That is true. Scotland and England and Northern Ireland will also have the choice of what sort of relationship they want with Wales and the other countries. Being independent gives everyone the ability to choose.
Which leads to the question of why wouldn't the countries that inhabit these islands not want a good relationship with each other as independent countries?

 

[KARFA]

Which leads to the question of why wouldn't the countries that inhabit these islands not want a good relationship with each other as independent countries?

A good relationship doesn't mean agreeing to everything the other side wants. The remainder of the UK will make it's own decisions on whether any particular area of cooperation or pooling of resources is in our interest at the time - and if it isn't then we won't agree to it. Like in any relationship between countries, sometimes you will not get what you want.

Scotland, England, and Northern Ireland are part of the UK at the moment. The UK government deals with issues around relationships with foreign countries, not the devolved administrations. If any of them choose to become independent then that would change, but until then you would be dealing with the UK government.

 

[Jerry]

until then you would be dealing with the UK government.

Assuming the UK government still exists by then. The expectation is that Scotland will be independent before Wales and Northern Ireland would be reunited with the Republic which would mean the UK wouldn't exist by then. But who knows Wales could gain independence before that!

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Assuming the UK government still exists by then. The expectation is that Scotland will be independent before Wales and Northern Ireland would be reunited with the Republic which would mean the UK wouldn't exist by then.

I was in the act of typing a post making that very point.

 

[KARFA]

Assuming the UK government still exists by then. The expectation is that Scotland will be independent before Wales and Northern Ireland would be reunited with the Republic which would mean the UK wouldn't exist by then. But who knows Wales could gain independence before that!

Lot of assumptions there about what may happen in the future. But yes the principle is you deal with whatever is the state of play at the time.

 

[aviatorconcorde]

Why keep the UK going? We can have virtually the same relationship in a confederation where each country is independent but pools resources on things like defence etc.

Lets just do federalism then. The UK gov takes care of defence and foreign policy - nations do what they want.

 

[aviatorconcorde]

And the remainder of the UK could choose not to is my point. You just keep talking as if pooling on various issues is a unilateral decision by Wales when it clearly isn't, The other parties must also want to do the same for it to happen. The remainder of the UK will make it's own decisions about what is in their interests, and that may not align with what Wales wants.

Exactly this. What I’ve been saying all along. Welsh indies just assume indy England and Scotland would agree to whatever Wales wanted - A common travel area, currencies, trade deals.

The biggest elephant in the room hasn’t been addressed - if Scotland/Wales want the EU then there’s no way they can have Schengen which means no EU membership. All claims, no plans.

And absolutely no guarantees whatsoever. Like the brexit campaign said “easiest trade deal in history” is being recycled into the Welsh indy campaign. All fake and false narratives.

 

[aviatorconcorde]

really not sure who to vote for in the upcoming Welsh Assembly election.

Labour - I can’t vote for a hardline socialist
Conservative - I can’t vote for them any longer
Plaid Cymru - Well, reasons above.
Liberal democrat? - Could do i suppose.

What i found really interesting is that latest polling suggests Abolish Welsh Assembly are on course to potentially win 2 seats.

 

[Nigel B]

Could i suggest the political and nationalistic views being aired on this forum, find another more appropriate site,unless it involves aviation in Wales.

 

[Jerry]

Could i suggest the political and nationalistic views being aired on this forum, find another more appropriate site,unless it involves aviation in Wales.

Well this is the Random stuff thread so it can be used for non aviation related topics.
There's also not a lot going on aviation wise at the airport. The terminal is closed and it's mostly just sports and military movements. Route wise we had an excitement with Ryanair which proved to good to be true. Eastern seem to be adding everywhere else except Cardiff and other airlines like Aer lingus and loganair don't seem to be interested at all and with the ongoing Coronavirus will Wizz and TUI and KLM and Vueling be actually starting this summer? It's just so uncertain.

 

[Jerry]

The biggest elephant in the room hasn’t been addressed - if Scotland/Wales want the EU then there’s no way they can have Schengen which means no EU membership. All claims, no plans.

They can choose to opt out of Schengen at the time of joining but it must be approved by all 27 members.

 

[Jerry]

really not sure who to vote for in the upcoming Welsh Assembly election.

Labour - I can’t vote for a hardline socialist
Conservative - I can’t vote for them any longer
Plaid Cymru - Well, reasons above.
Liberal democrat? - Could do i suppose.

What i found really interesting is that latest polling suggests Abolish Welsh Assembly are on course to potentially win 2 seats.

Not really much socialist about Labour these days. Plaid are definitely more socialist than Labour. I'd say Labour are more in the bracket of the Lib Dems, can't see much between them.
Tories and AWAP regional seats will depend on if Plaid can get Labour voters to vote for them in the regional seats especially. Labour regional votes tend to be wasted because they are so strong in the constituency seats. I've seen predictions which can lead to the wiping out of AWAP and the lessening of Conservative seats if people give Plaid there second vote. Tbh there's not much difference between the Conservatives and AWAP these days but definitely clear water between Plaid and Labour/Lib Dems.

 

[aviatorconcorde]

Not really much socialist about Labour these days. Plaid are definitely more socialist than Labour. I'd say Labour are more in the bracket of the Lib Dems, can't see much between them.
Tories and AWAP regional seats will depend on if Plaid can get Labour voters to vote for them in the regional seats especially. Labour regional votes tend to be wasted because they are so strong in the constituency seats. I've seen predictions which can lead to the wiping out of AWAP and the lessening of Conservative seats if people give Plaid there second vote. Tbh there's not much difference between the Conservatives and AWAP these days but definitely clear water between Plaid and Labour/Lib Dems.

Really not sure why the Welsh Conservatives have gone down the path of hardline Nationalism. They should be valuing the relationship with the UK while also valuing devolution and being able to make our own decisions in Wales for ourselves.

Mark Drakeford is a big Jeremy Corbyn fan and I have no doubt he’s a socialist. You only have to listen to his facebook live’s to get that impression. I think Vaughan Gething is much centre, more electable and would be a better choice.

I wouldn’t be surprised if AWAP get some seats, a few people I’ve spoken to in the South are really annoyed with the way the Senedd has acted and all the confusing different rules of the Pandemic. Will Plaids potential gains come from the regional or constituency seats Jerry?

 

[aviatorconcorde]

They can choose to opt out of Schengen at the time of joining but it must be approved by all 27 members.

No guarantee then what so ever.
Why would that be approved when the last few nations have had to join Schengen with no exceptions. Then you have Spain and Catalonia to deal with.

 

[Jerry]

No guarantee then what so ever.
Why would that be approved when the last few nations have had to join Schengen with no exceptions. Then you have Spain and Catalonia to deal with.

No guarantee of anything in life, any application to join the EU for Wales is going to be along way off. I think in their commission Plaid put it at something to look at 20 to 30 years after independence.

 

[aviatorconcorde]

No guarantee of anything in life, any application to join the EU for Wales is going to be along way off. I think in their commission Plaid put it at something to look at 20 to 30 years after independence.

I could see the UK going back into some sort of EFTA or soft EU arrangement before then. We certainly need it.