Random Stuff!!

[TheLocalYokel]

People can visit tier 1 and tier 2 areas in England.

Welsh Government unveils latest travel rules as England's lockdown ends

Wales' cabinet met on Wednesday to decide what the new rules will be

www.dailypost.co.uk

Thanks for that link which seems to clarify that the move applies in both directions, something not made clear in the BBC report.

Nevertheless, there is little doubt that at the moment people living in parts of Wales from areas that would be in tier 3 in England can visit lower tier 1 and 2 areas in England (I've pointed out that Newport is currently at 309 infections per 100,000 - Swansea is 347 per 100,000 which is twice the level of Bristol's 175 per 100,000 which is in tier 3).

This means that someone living in Swansea with twice the infection rate of Bristol can visit a tier 2 area in England but I live in Bristol, a tier 3 area in England, and cannot or I'm not supposed to according to the government guidance. I fail to see any logic in that.

 

[Jerry]

This means that someone living in Swansea with twice the infection rate of Bristol can visit a tier 2 area in England but I, who live in a tier 3 area in England, cannot, or I'm not supposed to according to the government guidance. I fail to see any logic in that.

Yes WG don't seem to have gone for the tier system. I've heard it speculated that they may want to keep the rules uniform for Wales due to lack of a specific Welsh media, that the rules for the individual areas might not get communicated well but there was local lockdowns before so?

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Yes WG don't seem to have gone for the tier system. I've heard it speculated that they may want to keep the rules uniform for Wales due to lack of a specific Welsh media, that the rules for the individual areas might not get communicated well but there was local lockdowns before so?

Yet the WG won't let tier 3 people from England into Wales but seem content to allow people living in Wales from higher infected areas than many tier 3 areas in England to visit tier 2 areas in England, something that tier 3 residents themselves are told not to do.

 

[Jerry]

Yet the WG won't let tier 3 people from England into Wales but seem content to allow people living in Wales from higher infected areas than many tier 3 areas in England to visit tier 2 areas in England, something that tier 3 residents themselves are told not to do.

The vagaries of devolution and having different systems in place.

 

[KARFA]

This means that someone living in Swansea with twice the infection rate of Bristol can visit a tier 2 area in England but I live in Bristol, a tier 3 area in England, and cannot or I'm not supposed to according to the government guidance. I fail to see any logic in that.

The tier system in England which took effect from 2 December does not include any law on travel within your area or in/out of your area. You are free to travel anywhere in England regardless of your tier. The suggestion to think about travel is guidance only.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

The tier system in England which took effect from 2 December does not include any law on travel within your area or in/out of your area. You are free to travel anywhere in England regardless of your tier. The suggestion to think about travel is guidance only.

I'm aware of that but responsible citizens in England will take heed of the advice which is not to enter a lower tier area for non-essential purposes. Even if I choose to actually enter a tier 2 area from my tier 3 area (less than half a mile away in my case) the advice is still to act in that tier 2 area as if it was in a tier 3 area which means amongst other things that I should not go into a cafe, restaurant or pub for a meal because such an action is banned in tier 3 areas. Government website extract in italics below.

Travelling into or out of a Tier 3 alert level area​

Avoid travelling outside your area, including for overnight stays, other than where necessary, such as:

• for work
• for education
• to access voluntary, charitable or youth services
• because of caring responsibilities
• for moving home
• to visit your support bubble
• for a medical appointment or treatment

Where necessary, you can travel through other areas as part of a longer journey.

If you live in a Tier 3 area, you must continue to follow Tier 3 rules when you travel to a Tier 1 or Tier 2 area. You must not stay with anyone you do not live with elsewhere in the UK or visit their home (unless you share a support bubble).

People coming into tier 2 areas from Wales appear to be under no such injunction or advice if they choose to go into a cafe, restaurant or pub for a meal even though they might be coming from a location in Wales with a far higher infection rate than that tier 2 area and, as I described earlier, a considerably higher rate than the neighbouring tier 3 area.

I think it's more than the vagaries of the devolution system. It's irresponsible on the part of the Welsh Government to allow its citizens to travel to certain parts of England at a time when it is imposing more restrictions in Wales because of a rise in infection rates post firebreak, and on the part of the Westminster Government for permitting such entry into England.

 

[KARFA]

I'm aware of that but responsible citizens in England will take heed of the advice which is not to enter a lower tier area for non-essential purposes. Even if I choose to actually enter a tier 2 area from my tier 3 area (less than half a mile away in my case) the advice is still to act in that tier 2 area as if it was in a tier 3 area which means amongst other things that I should not go into a cafe, restaurant or pub for a meal because such an action is banned in tier 3 areas. Government website extract in italics below.

I think you have misunderstood both the law and the guidance here.

In law you do take the restrictions on gathering and mixing with you when you travel outside your tier area, that is what the part in the guidance you bolded is referring to. So if living in Tier 3 areas you are not allowed to mix households, and this will still apply to you even when visiting a Tier 1 or 2 area.

However, if you live in a Tier 3 area and go to a Tier 1 or Tier 2 area, you are perfectly free to visit a pub and enjoy a drink & meal. There is no expectation that you should not visit businesses in a Tier 1 or 2 area just because those business would be closed or restricted in your home tier area.

 

[superking]

With these covid 19 restrictions come in again,pubs clubs and drinking holes to be shut at 6 pm local time,the welsh govermment has said that the restrictions that are now in will stay as they are till the infection numbers drop.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

I think you have misunderstood both the law and the guidance here.

In law you do take the restrictions on gathering and mixing with you when you travel outside your tier area, that is what the part in the guidance you bolded is referring to. So if living in Tier 3 areas you are not allowed to mix households, and this will still apply to you even when visiting a Tier 1 or 2 area.

However, if you live in a Tier 3 area and go to a Tier 1 or Tier 2 area, you are perfectly free to visit a pub and enjoy a drink & meal. There is no expectation that you should not visit businesses in a Tier 1 or 2 area just because those business would be closed or restricted in your home tier area.

In tier 3 areas it is an offence for pubs or cafes/restaurants to allow people into the premises to consume meals but it is allowed in tier 2 areas. Ergo a tier 3 resident can't consume a meal in such premises in tier 3, in fact no-one can. If he/she follows government guidance and takes his/her tier 3 status to the tier 2 area they should follow the hospitality regime laid down by law for tier 3 when visiting the tier 2 area, ie no meals inside the premises.

If your interpretation is correct and I've misunderstood then so have the local press and local tv companies as well as Bristol's elected city mayor. There have been numerous press articles and local tv items along the lines that I submitted in my previous posts. It's particularly relevant to the Bristol conurbation which is governed in parts by four separate local authorities but, bizarrely, three have been placed in tier 3 and one in tier 2, even though they are all cheek by jowl and people regularly travel across and around the four-authority conurbation which is in effect a single entity. It's also the nearest English city area of any size to residents of South Wales.

Here are some extracts from a couple of local newspaper reports.

The Tier 3 lines you're not allowed to cross from Wednesday

A journey around our newly restricted land

www.bristolpost.co.uk

That means people living in Bristol, South Gloucestershire and North Somerset cannot travel outside of their area to go to a pub or a restaurant for a meal. The principle is that someone living in a Tier 3 area takes their Tier 3 status with them when they go outside their Tier 3 area.

'Ridiculous' new Tier rules split suburb of Bristol in two

'How are they going to enforce this - no one has thought this through'

www.bristolpost.co.uk

For the Maes Knoll (a carvery) is on the Bath and North East Somerset side of the border - which is in Tier 2, and so, as a pub which predominantly serves food, he can open to those booking meals.

But - there is a catch. Most of the custom for the Maes Knoll is people coming from Bristol, from the surrounding suburbs of Stockwood, Hengrove and Whitchurch Park.

Under the Government’s Tier restrictions, people living in Tier 3 take their tier with them if they were ever to travel outside that area. So walking over the border to the Maes Knoll doesn’t mean people from Bristol can go there - they would be breaching coronavirus guidelines if they did.

Later in the report this was written about a cafe owner whose premises are just inside Bristol in tier 3 but who lives in Bath & North East Somerset.

But Rosa lives in nearby Saltford, over the border in Bath and North East Somerset. So while she might be able to go for an after-work meal at the Maes Knoll, her staff who live in Bristol, or the office workers in the neighbouring estate agent who live in Bristol, couldn’t join her.

Even Bristol's elected mayor has been telling his citizens that they must adhere to government tier 3 guidance on behaviour when in the neighbouring tier 2 area.

 

[KARFA]

In tier 3 areas it is an offence for pubs or cafes/restaurants to allow people into the premises to consume meals but it is allowed in tier 2 areas. Ergo a tier 3 resident can't consume a meal in such premises in tier 3, in fact no-one can. If he/she follows government guidance and takes his/her tier 3 status to the tier 2 area they should follow the hospitality regime laid down by law for tier 3 when visiting the tier 2 area, ie no meals inside the premises.

In the context of England this is just plane wrong in terms of the law which is in force since 2 December. If you read the law it is the restrictions on the individual which the person takes with them and those are the restrictions around mixing of households and gatherings. You are the one committing an offence if you do not follow these restrictions for your area, and you must adhere to them when in your tier 3 area or if you go to a tier 2/1 area. These restrictions around gatherings and household mixing are the ones which you carry with you when moving to another tier area.

There are no restrictions on the individual around what shops and businesses they can or can't go to. The law does not say an individual in a tier 3 area must not go to a pub for example, instead it is the business in tier 3 which is the subject of the restriction as to whether they can open and what they can serve.

When it comes to restrictions on businesses (i.e. what can open, when they can open, and what they can serve) these are restrictions on the business itself not the individual. If a pub in a tier 3 area serves drinks for consumption inside, it is the pub which commits the offence not the individual who goes in, buys the drink, and sits down to have it. So as you noted a pub in a tier 3 area can't serve alcohol or food for consumption on the premises, but a pub in a tier 2 can serve alcohol with a meal for someone to have in the pub. The pub in the tier 2 area is not restricted on who they serve and there is nothing in the law which says they should not serve people of they come from a different tier area.

So if you live in a tier 3 area there is no legal restriction on you travelling to a tier 2 or 1 area, and there is no restriction on you going to a pub and having a drink and meal. You must of course still not mix (in line with the gatherings and mixing restrictions for your home tier), but if sat on your own or with those in your household there is no offence you are committing. In your example it is perfectly legal for customers from the same household in Bristol to go to the Maes Knoll and have a drink & meal as long as they do not mix with other households. And there is no law which says Maes Knoll must not serve you. Neither the individuals or the pub are breaking any law in that example.

Tbh the paper articles you quoted from are confused because there is confusion between what the law says and what the guidelines says, the two don't quite match and I think it isn't clear sometimes which bit is mandatory and which bit is advice - I think there is some deliberate blurring of the distinction. The guidelines are broader that the law, and the problem is many are just stating the guidelines as if they are the law.

You can look at the law here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/contents/made

Just to add to the complication for those near Wales, Wales has a different set of laws in place and there are restrictions on anyone from a tier 3 area in England going to Wales. So no person from an England Tier 3 area, any of Northern Ireland, or from a Scotland Level 3 & 4 areas may enter or remain without reasonable excuse. Reasonable excuse are things like obtaining medical assistance, legal obligations, work, obtaining food and medical supplies etc. For someone in Bristol you cannot go to Wales at all unless it is for a purpose which is a reasonable excuse.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

In the context of England this is just plane wrong in terms of the law which is in force since 2 December. If you read the law it is the restrictions on the individual which the person takes with them and those are the restrictions around mixing of households and gatherings. You are the one committing an offence if you do not follow these restrictions for your area, and you must adhere to them when in your tier 3 area or if you go to a tier 2/1 area. These restrictions around gatherings and household mixing are the ones which you carry with you when moving to another tier area.

There are no restrictions on the individual around what shops and businesses they can or can't go to. The law does not say an individual in a tier 3 area must not go to a pub for example, instead it is the business in tier 3 which is the subject of the restriction as to whether they can open and what they can serve.

When it comes to restrictions on businesses (i.e. what can open, when they can open, and what they can serve) these are restrictions on the business itself not the individual. If a pub in a tier 3 area serves drinks for consumption inside, it is the pub which commits the offence not the individual who goes in, buys the drink, and sits down to have it. So as you noted a pub in a tier 3 area can't serve alcohol or food for consumption on the premises, but a pub in a tier 2 can serve alcohol with a meal for someone to have in the pub. The pub in the tier 2 area is not restricted on who they serve and there is nothing in the law which says they should not serve people of they come from a different tier area.

So if you live in a tier 3 area there is no legal restriction on you travelling to a tier 2 or 1 area, and there is no restriction on you going to a pub and having a drink and meal. You must of course still not mix (in line with the gatherings and mixing restrictions for your home tier), but if sat on your own or with those in your household there is no offence you are committing. In your example it is perfectly legal for customers from the same household in Bristol to go to the Maes Knoll and have a drink & meal as long as they do not mix with other households. And there is no law which says Maes Knoll must not serve you. Neither the individuals or the pub are breaking any law in that example.

Tbh the paper articles you quoted from are confused because there is confusion between what the law says and what the guidelines says, the two don't quite match and I think it isn't clear sometimes which bit is mandatory and which bit is advice - I think there is some deliberate blurring of the distinction. The guidelines are broader that the law, and the problem is many are just stating the guidelines as if they are the law.

You can look at the law here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/contents/made

Just to add to the complication for those near Wales, Wales has a different set of laws in place and there are restrictions on anyone from a tier 3 area in England going to Wales. So no person from an England Tier 3 area, any of Northern Ireland, or from a Scotland Level 3 & 4 areas may enter or remain without reasonable excuse. Reasonable excuse are things like obtaining medical assistance, legal obligations, work, obtaining food and medical supplies etc. For someone in Bristol you cannot go to Wales at all unless it is for a purpose which is a reasonable excuse.

Thank you for your comprehensive reply. I think that your paragraph I've copied below in blue is key.

Tbh the paper articles you quoted from are confused because there is confusion between what the law says and what the guidelines says, the two don't quite match and I think it isn't clear sometimes which bit is mandatory and which bit is advice - I think there is some deliberate blurring of the distinction. The guidelines are broader that the law, and the problem is many are just stating the guidelines as if they are the law.

This has been the problem from the outset. Some of the exhortations from government are backed up by legislation, others are guidance. If newspapers, local tv news channels and a city mayor get it wrong (as they have done regularly in the past two weeks based on your posts) little wonder that the ordinary person in the street is confused. We've also seen Westminster Government ministers giving incorrect interpretations on aspects of pandemic law/guidance when asked at press conferences this year.

The Welsh Government's response to the pandemic which of course is a perfectly legitimate path for it to take even though it sometimes does not accord with Westminster on behalf of England or with the Scottish Government at times either serves to add further confusion in the minds of many people. Again this is particularly relevant to the Bristol area situated as it is almost on the Welsh border with, in normal times, much physical interaction between the West Country and South Wales. One of our our daughter-in-law's daughters lives and works in South Wales and visits her mother in Bristol. Throughout the summer she has never been sure if she is breaching Welsh guidance or law or Westminster guidance or law or perhaps both at times by making such visits.

I did say in a previous post that as a responsible citizen I would adhere to Westminster government guidance which is not to travel from tier 3 to tier 2 if avoidable. Given that one of the four councils making up the Greater Bristol area is in tier 2 and the others in tier 3, is the Westminster Government really sanguine about the idea of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people travelling the short distance into the nearby tier 2 area in order to eat at a restaurant or pub because of the ban on doing such things in tier 3? It makes no sense because they are potentially going from a higher infected area to a lower one: latest infection figures per 100,000 - Bristol 168, South Gloucestershire 145, North Somerset 142 and Bath & North East Somerset 85. Wales's principal cities have risen again with Swansea at 368, Newport 314 and Cardiff 247.

If the Westminster Government is not content with the idea of tier 3 residents eating in tier 2 pubs or restaurants, which I suspect is the case, it could easily have made it clear that taking your tier 3 status with you applies to the guidance as well as those pandemic measures enshrined in law. Whether people abide by the guidance is then a matter for their conscience.

Be as it may, because of the intense local news media coverage in the Bristol city region there is no doubt that many pub landlords and cafe/restaurant owners in the local tier 2 area believe they are not allowed to admit residents from the adjacent tier 3 areas and have been seen on local tv musing how they can establish the residential status of those coming to their establishment. However, they would probably not have similar reservations with people visiting from Wales because they are not from a tier 3 area in England

Yesterday I sent an email to my MP asking for her views on the matter. I didn't expect an early reply which was confirmed by an automated response saying that she and her staff are working remotely and are dealing with constituents' communications in order of priority.

 

[JENNYJET]

KARFA offered an excellent interpretation of the legal position and I cannot dissent in any way. I can say that in my opinion, devolution should be set aside during national emergencies affecting the United Kingdom to which individual nations belong. This would allow clarity and prevent confusion amongst the population as to where one can or cannot go for whatever reason.

I do have one possible thought about entering pubs in different areas. Could landlords or proprietors be held liable for incitement to break laws if any exist by knowingly serving someone from a more restricted area? My strict interpretation would suggest an offence had been committed in that scenario! Whether or not that is in the public interest is for prosecutors or other persons to consider should fixed penalty not be sufficient.

Have a good day folks.

 

[KARFA]

In England there is no legal restriction on who pubs can serve so there is no issue for the customer or pub owner if a person from a tier 3 area goes to a tier 2 area pub. There is no incitement to break a law because no law is being broken and no offence is being committed by anyone.

For Wales unless the pub was actively targeting advertising in to a nearby English tier 3 area I can’t see what the issue would be. Even in that situation I doubt police would even think about doing something unless the Welsh pub was being incredibly aggressive in luring customers in from England.

 

[Jerry]

Looks like the proposed battery factory in St Athans won't be happening.

End of the road for 3,500 job electric battery gigafactory in South Wales

Britishvolt had identified a site at St Athan for the project

www.business-live.co.uk

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Looks like the proposed battery factory in St Athans won't be happening.

End of the road for 3,500 job electric battery gigafactory in South Wales

Britishvolt had identified a site at St Athan for the project

www.business-live.co.uk

They've switched their plans to Northumberland. A bigger slice of government aid there? 'Levelling up' the North?

Electric car battery plant for Blyth power station site

Britishvolt says the £2.6bn plant will be the largest industrial investment in the North East for years.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Jerry]

They've switched their plans to Northumberland. A bigger slice of government aid there? 'Levelling up' the North?

Electric car battery plant for Blyth power station site

Britishvolt says the £2.6bn plant will be the largest industrial investment in the North East for years.

www.bbc.co.uk

Most likely!

 

[Jerry]

Wales will lose 8 seats at Westminster in the upcoming boundary changes. Going from 40 to 32.
Some people think this is fair others don't think it's fair and that it'll reduce Wales voice at Westminster but the sad reality is that Wales doesn't have a voice at Westminster. Politically it's still an English region (at Westminster) with only Plaid (4 seats) being a separate Welsh party and getting to ask questions at PM questions. 'Welsh' Labour despite having 22 seats have no independent representation and the MPs come under British Labour's whip, same with 'Welsh' Conservatives who have 14 seat's. LibDems have no seats in Wales.
UK wide the boundary changes will mean that the 8 seats from Wales will go to southern England and it's predicted that the Conservatives will gain 10 seats.

 

[aviatorconcorde]

Welsh covid patients to be sent to English hospitals to help ease the burden on the Welsh NHS.

nice to see the UK working together instead of infighting.

 

[KARFA]

Wales will lose 8 seats at Westminster in the upcoming boundary changes. Going from 40 to 32.
Some people think this is fair others don't think it's fair and that it'll reduce Wales voice at Westminster but the sad reality is that Wales doesn't have a voice at Westminster. Politically it's still an English region (at Westminster) with only Plaid (4 seats) being a separate Welsh party and getting to ask questions at PM questions. 'Welsh' Labour despite having 22 seats have no independent representation and the MPs come under British Labour's whip, same with 'Welsh' Conservatives who have 14 seat's. LibDems have no seats in Wales.
UK wide the boundary changes will mean that the 8 seats from Wales will go to southern England and it's predicted that the Conservatives will gain 10 seats.

In 2017, the median total Parliamentary electorate across constituencies was about

56,000 in Wales
68,300 in Northern Ireland
67,200 in Scotland
72,200 in England

Wales is the most over-represented of the 4 nations in Westminster. A Welsh voter has more representation in Westminster compared to a voter in England, Scotland, or Northern Ireland.

 

[Jerry]

In 2017, the median total Parliamentary electorate across constituencies was about

56,000 in Wales
68,300 in Northern Ireland
67,200 in Scotland
72,200 in England

Wales is the most over-represented of the 4 nations in Westminster. A Welsh voter has more representation in Westminster compared to a voter in England, Scotland, or Northern Ireland.

The loss of representation wouldn't be so bad if it was accompanied or Wales already had extra devolved powers like policing and justice.