Doncaster Sheffield - General Thread

[Aviador]

I agree Muddycoffee and with my journey from Scotland last Friday still fresh in my memory, it's not a journey I would consider making before getting on a plane. I think for people living in Yorkshire, most will consider flying from Leeds, Manchester, East Midlands, Doncaster or Humberside, perhaps Birmingham or Newcastle with say Emirates but driving any further is going to be limited to a very small number of people.

 

[ryan]

My rule of thumb is that if the drive (or bus/train) to the airport is longer than the flight, it's not worth it! When I lived in Doncaster, I would exclusively fly from DSA for the sole reason that it was 10 minutes away. I wouldn't even look at prices from another airport, that way I wouldn't be disappointed if I found out they were £XX cheaper. (obviously if the destination wasn't served fom DSA I would look elsewhere -usually MAN, direct from Doncaster on the train). Now that I live 25 minutes from LHR, I use the same reasoning.

 

[lysander]

As I said earlier, the young man might have a sadistic streak...On the other hand, knowing him and also knowing of the very responsible job he has, I imagine he will have already made the sort of calculations suggested and still decided there are advantages in making the trip.

 

[airforced]

Rather tongue in cheek question here. Is his name Mr McTight?

Couldn't resist as our friends from north of the border can have something of a reputation for seeking out a bargain no matter how much it costs.

No offence of course. Only joshing.

 

[lysander]

Thinking about it, that sort of journey to/from an airport is not all that unusual. When I go back to my second home in Canada I am faced with a choice...either a minimum 4 hour drive from Toronto or a 5 hour drive to Gatwick ( at my speed down the M1/M25...should I fly to Ottowa which is a little nearer home). I choose to go by train and fly from MAN to YYZ and then take my chances on the 401..(.the toll highway 407 is almost as congested , at times, as is the good old 401)

 

[lysander]

Looking at another thread I noticed, with considerable interest, the news that Lufthansa are creating a new lo-co airline which will connect, amongst others, Birmingham to German destinations. I wonder if there is even a remote chance that DSA might manage a service? In 2001 the late Sheffield City Airport was negotiating for services to several German destinations but, since then, despite pledges of 'better services' from DSA, local businessmen have still to travel to an airport outside the City Region to access this important market!

 

[stars&sids]

Lysander, much as I would love that to be the case, it's unlikely that DSA could support a Frankfurt service at present. As far as I know, there isn't a big enough tie up between businesses in the South Yorks and Frankfurt areas to fill the aircraft on a regular basis
I would imagine that the best approach would be to push the service as a feeder for Lufthansa world wide services from FRA. I'm writing this from Frankfurt, which we flew into this morning on the LH 949 from MAN, a bmi A320, with around a 70% load
Standing on the viewing deck here, it is surprising how few flights to here from the UK are originating from anywhere other than LHR, LCY, or BHX. I believe that Flybe operate a single daily service from Southampton only now, and we used that last year (when the Q400 was full in both directions).
If LH are looking at the uk, I think the first priority will be to replace the bmi operated rotations from MAN & BHX, as the bmi a/c used on these services are due to be integrated into the BA fleet as early as this October.

 

[lysander]

There are , of course, destinations other than Frankfurt. A few years ago, when South Yorkshire was, arguably, at the forefront of the steel industry, the region had strong commercial links with Germany.... I suppose with the regions industrial decline there will be less demand than there once was, although I know of one local industrialist ( yes, we still have a few) who bought his own aircraft on account of the poor air links with Europe.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Looking at another thread I noticed, with considerable interest, the news that Lufthansa are creating a new lo-co airline which will connect, amongst others, Birmingham to German destinations. I wonder if there is even a remote chance that DSA might manage a service? In 2001 the late Sheffield City Airport was negotiating for services to several German destinations but, since then, despite pledges of 'better services' from DSA, local businessmen have still to travel to an airport outside the City Region to access this important market!

I believe that Flybe operate a single daily service from Southampton only now, and we used that last year (when the Q400 was full in both directions).

The Flybe Southampton-Frankfurt link was axed this month because, according to the airline, a lack of demand.

Last year Flybe axed its Frankfurt routes from Manchester and Birmingham and no longer flies into FRA from anywhere.

The German market seems a difficult one for UK regional airports, other than the largest two. In 2008-2009 Lufthansa (via Eurowings) operated Bristol-Frankfurt and, despite being ahead of its projected business plan (its fares were very high and elicited complaints from regular travellers) with passengers using every one of LH's Frankfurt connecting routes worldwide in the first six months of operation (LH announced this at the time), the company closed the route after just over 12 months and 99,000 passengers.

There are one or two other LH routes from UK airports to FRA, notably from EDI and ABZ, and bmiRegional operates to FRA from East Midlands. LH flies to Dusseldorf from NCL but only BHX and MAN seem to have decent networks - not surprising given their size.

Some of the lowcost airlines have routes to Germany from other UK airports.

The new lowcost LH airline being set up will not, it appears, act as a feeder into LH mainline at FRA so any route it operates from the UK will effectively be point to point only.

This would make any use out of the smaller UK regional airport of much less potential value to passengers.

The reported reason is that LH doesn't want its premium long-haul passengers having to undergo a low cost airline experience on the first or last leg of their journey. I wonder how long that would last as it appears they would be turning away a large number of long haul passengers not worried about a short low-cost flight as part of the overall journey.

 

[stars&sids]

D B Schenke would be an obvious business link between the 2 regions, and of course, Frankfurt & Leeds are both financial centres. If the right marketing was in place, then sensibly timed flights, using the right aircraft between DSA & FRA may just work, as long as the benefits of onward connections are highlighted.
It would certainly need to be sold more aggressively than the NY & Boston connections via Dublin were, which somewhat limited the potential of the feeder route from DSA.
Frankfurt is a fantastic airport, and the world really is your oyster from here.

 

[dmrodgers]

Why would you want to fly into Doncaster when Leeds has an airport if you are connecting the two financial centers? Surely the logical option is to use LBA.

 

[lysander]

I was being a little tongue in cheek when asking the question of Doncaster. It has no obvious business flights, yet is the 'appointed' airport for a City Region of nearly 2 million souls...which still has some industry and commerce ...DSA is supported by the LEP as well as by the Region's Chambers of Commerce yet the closed Sheffield City Airport is sited in the middle of the Region's Enterprise Zone... and is adjacent to the Motorway network. This seems a waste of a transport facility.

 

[stars&sids]

Why would you want to fly into Doncaster when Leeds has an airport if you are connecting the two financial centers? Surely the logical option is to use LBA.

Well... yes it might be logical, if there was a service from LBA, but there isn't at present. As I stated earlier, there are very few flights to FRA originating from the UK, and Local Yokel goes further by telling us which UK airports do, in fact serve Frankfurt.
So, if the marketing people at DSA were able to convince the new Lufthansa LoCo that there could be a viable service operated between the two airports, there would be every reason to suppose that some of the passengers currently flying to FRA from MAN, EMA, BHX, and even LHR might switch to the DSA service out of convenience, and possibly, to secure a cost saving. If you live in Sheffield / South Yorks, Leeds / West Yorks, Hull, Nottingham, Lincoln etc, you are within 1 1/2 hrs drive of Doncaster Airport, the same distance as to Manchester, or East Mids.

Unfortunately for DSA, the marketing team at LBA are currently showing how good they are at bringing in new airlines and services, and the Vantage Airports team would need to be at least, if not more persuasive to secure such a major carrier as Lufthansa.

 

[stars&sids]

Last year Flybe axed its Frankfurt routes from Manchester and Birmingham and no longer flies into FRA from anywhere.

Hi Local Yokel.
It was because of this reason that we flew through SOU last year. Flybe didn't inform us that they were pulling the MAN - FRA route, rather we found out on one of the Forums 4 Airports forums ! This was in July, due to fly in early October. They then offered us a connection from MAN through SOU, which we accepted. It worked well on the outbound, with a 2 hour wait at SOU, but on the return, it was the evening flight, and we had to use the Airport hotel before our return to MAN the next morning.
They gave us this for the same £100 fare, when changing to Lufthansa / bmi that close to the actual flight date would have cost us £160.

 

[pug]

Stars&sids, according to reports from FoLa members, Vantage are unwilling/unprepared to compete on the sort of costs LBA and MAG are offering to operators. Not to mention the more solid catchment areas surrounding MAN, LBA and EMA.

I'm still baffled as to why easyjet havent fully committed to DSA, considering their sparse coverage this side of the Pennines. I can only assume its a case of weak ROS during their previous attempts, or a change of strategy. Perhaps even a bit of both?

I think the new bmir could be one to watch in terms of DSA.. However certain city routes-the likes of which we may associated with them-have also been mentioned as possibilities at HUY end, though no operator has been mentioned.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Thank you for the background to your SOU adventure, stars&sids.

At present it doesn't look as though FRA or MUC will feature in the new LH low-cost route network.

This link describes what's likely to happen:
http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/l ... -cut-costs

This part of the linked report is the relevant bit.

...................services into Frankfurt and Munich will not form part of the new budget carrier’s network. That is because they are considered feeder services and, naturally, Lufthansa would want to give a good impression to connecting passengers, some of whom may have paid large sums of money for their first and business class long-haul tickets.

I mentioned this in my earlier post but also wondered how long it would last if there is a market to be tapped at UK regional airports that would feed into LH long haul, even if it did upset one or two premium passengers having to 'slum it' on the first or last part of a long haul journey.

 

[lysander]

The brief easyJet move into services from DSA perplexed a few people I know who work for said airline, being against stated policy of concentrating on fewer airports . Apparantly, yields were lower than expected hence the brevity of stay. Of course, one might wonder if there was any connection between easyJet being there when negotiations were taking place over new ownership of Finningley!

 

[pug]

Airport bosses in recovery call

Peel Airports, the owners of Robin Hood as well as Liverpool’s John Lennon Airport, have welcomed the results of a recent survey of more than 2,000 British adults which highlights the need for urgent action to improve UK aviation policy.

The survey, conducted on behalf of industry body the Airport Operators Association (AOA) shows that:

n 73 per cent of UK business leaders believe that it is more important than ever that the Government supports the aviation industry to help deliver its growth and jobs agenda

n 82 per cent of the British public think that Air Passenger Duty should be cut or frozen in George Osborne’s forthcoming Autumn Statement.

Peel also believes that the lack of support for aviation through a variety of key policies means that the UK Government continues to turn its back on the industry and regional airports – when both have the ability to help kick-start regional and national economies.

The survey results reveal these views are shared by the vast majority of business leaders and the wider public too.

Peel is due to respond this week to the Government’s consultation on its Draft Aviation Policy Framework and will be highlighting the need for a coherent national aviation policy which places the industry and regional airports at the heart of the economic drive for recovery and rebalancing of the national economy.

Craig Richmond CEO of Peel Airports Limited said: “Airports such as ours have the opportunity to get the UK regional and national economy back on track, however we need Government policy to work with us not against us. This survey demonstrates overwhelming public support for this approach too.”

“Our counterparts across Europe continue to have the support of their Governments making them far more attractive to airlines than we are.”

A Department for Transport spokesman said: “The strength with which the different options are put forward shows precisely why we were right to set up a proper independent review to consider fully what is in the country’s interest.”

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/local/air ... -1-5072518

Whilst they are probably basing this on APD (which I would support them on), there are a few things that stick out.

The article alludes to all UK regionals suffering on the back of a supposed lack of interest from Government. It cant be doing LBA, EMA and MAN any harm. FARRRS has also been pushed through during this Government's term too.

Suggesting that the Govt. lacks interest in regional airports is incorrect.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/news/statements/g ... 20120712a/

What is important is reaching solid proposals for development in the South East. Something they do seem to lack interest in.

 

[lysander]

Let's not forget that FARRRS also has important links with the development of Rossington township itself, as well as the proposed Railport. RHADS is also the site for a continuing, important and large development of the airports associated Business Park and will, no doubt, benefit from a somewaht easier access to the motorway network.

 

[lysander]

I am puzzled. The BBC hasn't been showing the Arrivals boaed for some days...Any ideas why?