Air Canada Rouge


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ethanegcc

Platinum Member
Jul 10, 2016
2,109
163
UK
I hope we see AC mainline. I was looking at the seat maps and Business seemed quite full. It would be a really nice development and I think there is room for the YYZ route to grow if AC advertised the connections more. At a time when we are getting the likes of CX, HU and CA, we simply cannot suffice with a low cost version of an airline, displayed by a SQ: when rumours of the route changing to Scoot came, SQ pulled a SIN-MAN-IAH route out of the bag. We need to get AC mainline, otherwise it is one big flaw in our route network.
 

Dobbo

New Member
Oct 27, 2015
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0
I do find it odd that AC don't run into MAN year round.

There may be something I'm missing, perhaps demand is much lower than I expect or most passengers transfer through somewhere like JFK or PHL (where there is a daily year round service).
 

Land23R

Platinum Member
May 9, 2014
1,066
113
Cheshire
At 12.45pm, the MAN departure boards showed final boarding for the delayed Friday and today's scheduled flights to Toronto. I hope the pax delayed 48 hours will be well looked after on their flight.
 

EGCC_MAN

Premium Member+
Subscriber
Feb 2, 2016
595
193
I wouldn't read too much into the 'full business class' on the seat map. Given the short-run of this Air Canada mainline service (about four weeks) and negligible advanced publicity surrounding it we can be sure that it hasn't pulled in a mainstream business market. Those seats will be filled by passengers who have paid a modest upgrade fee. Some may have been lucky enough to be upgraded at no additional cost so that the aircraft does not leave with empty seats which could have been sold at Rouge prices. Keep in mind also that many customers using this service will have flown one of their sectors with Rouge anyway simply on the basis of their selected dates.
 

ethanegcc

Platinum Member
Jul 10, 2016
2,109
163
UK
I understand this and on ACs behalf the trial was always going to be incapable of producing any decent results. There was no publicity, no advertisements and the regular passenger would have had no idea. I think Air Canada needs to get behind the notion that if you are going to do something; do it right. After all, MAN is not like LGW as a low cost alternative to another airport or VCE (a Rouge destination) that is purely for tourism. It would be nice for people to have a full service carrier into Manchester instead of choosing between the ubiquitous presence of LCCs on the Canada market from MAN (Rouge or Transat) which, quite frankly, aren't exactly the best carriers or the most tantalising to fly on. If AC did some advertising about the new mainline service and the onward connections from YYZ I am sure they would be able to fill maybe even a 333 or 788.
 

Chilly Dog

Member
Jul 23, 2016
64
18
40
Sydney
To be fair - as EGCC suggests - I'm not sure this has ever been portrayed as a trial for AC mainline anywhere other than on these forums. Certainly I can't find anything online to suggest AC have promoted the brief AC-operated window was any type of test. We're in danger on these threads of whipping ourselves into frenzies of our own making, based entirely on info postulated only on these very threads.

As has been posted elsewhere, prices were not differentiated when service passed from Rouge to AC. Passengers flying out Rouge and back AC - or vice versa - paid the same price. There was no supplement for AC flights, even in business class.

It's perhaps tempting to see this short change as prestigious for MAN (over LGW or VCE, for example) but whilst AC has a superior business cabin - their planes also have far fewer economy seats than Rouge. What's to say this substitution was not due to MAN performing less well overall than other European points? I have no insight into the yields on the MAN-YYZ service but AC's on/off history and resumption as a seasonal Rouge flight suggests they see MAN as a lower yielding city - certainly outside of peak summer.

Also - another common misconception to quickly dispel - AC allow Rouge connections from MAN via YYZ and onwards. MAN-YYZ-YVR is perfectly possible when Rouge operates out of MAN. There were no connections benefits of AC that needed extra "publicity".

OK that's all : )
 

ethanegcc

Platinum Member
Jul 10, 2016
2,109
163
UK
I understand that AC Rouge still allow connections but if AC advertised them more in the UK, there would surely be an increased demand for popularity. I just think we need something more substantial to Canada's largest city, all year round, that's all. It seems like a real fault in our route network that in winter there is 1 TS A310 a week to YYZ and we have SQ and CX 77W and HU 333s going as far afield as HKG, SIN, IAH and PEK multiple times a week.
 

Chilly Dog

Member
Jul 23, 2016
64
18
40
Sydney
It's probably not a great comparison to be fair - Canada, population 35 million, average maximum temps below 15 degrees for half the year - versus East and South East Asia, population 2.2 billion. Not to mention the year-end draw of Australia served by SQ and CX.

AC are also in competition with the US carriers too - Canada can't be looked at in isolation. All US-bound carriers would be offering connections to Canada from their east coast and midwest hubs.

Add to that, that during winter, when no right-minded European would go to Toronto on holiday, the Canadians themselves flee to the Caribbean and Florida sun - which are thus much more profitable destinations for AC (and Rouge!) for that part of the year.
 

ethanegcc

Platinum Member
Jul 10, 2016
2,109
163
UK
I know that AC are in competition with US airlines and that could be a problem for them. The comparison wasn't about the population or temperature of any destination, it was more about implying that other airlines fly into Manchester full service, there is a business market and they haven't had to send a LCC e.g. scoot and whilst the fact may remain that Manchester is a lower yielding city than London for example I remain positive that if there was more advanced publicity a business market could arise, just as American roster a larger business class cabin with onward connections on the ORD route and for this purpose I feel my comparison was perfectly reasonable. And if you want to compare populations, each of these cities have a population of around 2.7m.

Even if the route was not all year round, akin to AA's ORD route, it would be nice to see AC mainline for the time it does.
 

Jerry

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Staff member
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Jun 1, 2016
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Cardiff
Would have thought they would play on the fact that many of the airports theyfly in have US immigration pre clearance and advertise their USA connections as well?
 

ethanegcc

Platinum Member
Jul 10, 2016
2,109
163
UK
Definately. Given on how much DUB and SNN have gained from advertising this. I'd don't think your average traveller would know about Canada having US pre clearance.
 

Land23R

Platinum Member
May 9, 2014
1,066
113
Cheshire
Do we really want more pax flying to the US via Canada and diluting our own direct flights to the States?
It seems likely this is already happening on DUB, and probably KEF too.

Air Transat fly weekly to Toronto from MAN during winter, and in Feb, according to the CAA stats, carried 1,527 pax
which was 11% down on the previous Feb, although an average load of 191 isn't too bad. The Canadian market has changed from what it was 30 years ago, while I imagine the potential business activity is very limited.

Regarding potential loss of direct TATL pax to DUB, a look at the CAA stats for MAN-DUB over the 12 months to 30 April (no figures yet for May/June), the monthly percentage increases have all been above 10% except May'15 which was up 8% on May'14. June to December increases ranged from 13% (June) to 22% in Nov. In the 4 months from Jan'16, the monthly increases have been 20% or over, with a 25% increase in March (to 86,002 pax). It would be nice to think that all the growth was attributable to more folk deciding to spend holidays or weekend breaks in Ireland and to more business traffic between the 2 cities. However, it seems highly probable that some of that growth, perhaps even a significant proportion, is due to pax routing to the US via DUB rather than on our own direct services; the attraction being lower fares, pre-US clearance, perhaps airline or aircraft preference and for those willing to take the risk of booking flights on separate tickets, no long haul APD.

Although I've not checked, I'd be surprised if flying to the US via Canada was attractive due to lower fares, but in any case, sometimes we should be careful what we wish for.
 
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ethanegcc

Platinum Member
Jul 10, 2016
2,109
163
UK
On an AC Rouge New Routes thread on airliners.net, User001 stated AC were going to start a YVR-MAN and an extended YYZ season. Is this true User?
 

Dobbo

New Member
Oct 27, 2015
0
0
It would be a remarkable commitment for AC (Rouge or mainline) to operate an extended season on YYZ and start YVR at the same time. It looks like Rouge are going after TS's European business in a big way after the renegotiated union agreement and fleet expansion.

I was pushing for YYZ mainline for a season and possibly year round. Perhaps that may happen next summer.
 

ethanegcc

Platinum Member
Jul 10, 2016
2,109
163
UK
I hope this will happen but the main line 763s are being converted to rouge, but I suspect they will keep some for the time being for the Ottawa-London, Halifax-London and Montreal to Lyon etc.
On routes online it says that YYZ-EZE-SCL previously operated by a mainline 763 will become a 788. Perhaps a freed up 767 for MAN?
 

ethanegcc

Platinum Member
Jul 10, 2016
2,109
163
UK
There is also rumour on the Pprune forum that YVR will start, some saying it will be a mainline aircraft, others saying it will operated like DUB.

Any info from this forum would be greatly appreciated.
 

ethanegcc

Platinum Member
Jul 10, 2016
2,109
163
UK
Yes, there are a couple of lines around MAN but it is rather confusing as to the context. Mainline or Rouge?

We are now looking at 2017 though rather than 2015.

I suppose we will have to see but nevertheless the rumour was posted on airliners.net by user and on pprune. We will have to wait and see.
 
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