KLM

[pug]

Cor blimey - where to start!

Before the Eastern agreement, these UK-AMS routes were being flown by KLC aircraft and crews. Yes, they are short of both as a result of the PW engine issues on the E2 and the parent company's pilot recruitment. Isn't it a bit of a stretch to portray something that's only lasted for 18 months as being integral to the structure and future UK aviation? The time for that sentiment / battle (as you wish) here was surely when KLM closed KLM UK. Arguably they shouldn't have done, but trying to reposition Eastern in Air UK's shadow as the essential UK feeder to Amsterdam is a bit like some stand-up comedian duo today laying claim to Morecambe & Wise's legacy.

I can also see KLM and Air France's collective unions - which are a force that has dictated much of history, including the closure of KLM UK - strongly pushing for KLC to use Hop E190s. They jointly control the pilot contracts there versus continued use of Eastern E190s on which they don't. I can't say whether that's a factor or not, but it's a point with which I think you'd be hard pushed to disagree.

For whatever reason, I am told KLM has taken the decision to use the Hop! aircraft. I've every reason to believe what I'm hearing, given where this news is coming from. And I think the decision now is not due to yesterday's performance or the day before's, but issues which have been building way back and where it's taken KLM some time to put an alternative in place. It now has.

I think it may be difficult to paint an E190 rating as worthless. BA CityFlyer wouldn't agree, for one. Titan - if they wish to grow their fleet from the current single aircraft - probably wouldn't either. For those pilots with a J41 rating, you do have an absolutely valid point though.

No im not trying to argue that the Eastern ops are vital to the KLC network, not even close. I’m saying Eastern play an important part in the U.K. industry and to wish them going to the wall is short sighted. The contract with KLM was for 7 years with options to extend, now there may well be external (or internal) influences leading to a cancellation of this contract including strong union opposition, but the fact is that KLC have also had trouble recruiting and retaining crew on the E-jet fleet and this is why they decided to outsource in the first place, the engine issues on the E2 were only part of the problem. However even then Hops three aircraft will not be able to absorb the 4-5 that T3 have committed to the network, so I fail to understand how this will work in practice if what you’re saying is true.

Cityflyer don’t need lots of pilots. Nor do Titan unless they managed to acquire a significant number of them. Just look at the issues Flybe had with them and it’s probably fair to say that they contributed towards their ultimate downfall.

Ironically I think the ones on the J41 will be ok, though some are leaving to pastures new with they lot 1500 hours. Show me another operator apart from Loganair that play a vital role in the flight crew supply chain. If what you are saying is true (and I still have reason to doubt, as despite what @Bigman has said one of the people I speak to would know) then there will be some concern amongst the training departments of many U.K. airlines. It costs a lot to train new pilots, particularly if they’ve only got 250 hours! Airlines like Eastern do all that for them. Might seem inconsequential to people but it’s true and it does have a knock on elsewhere.

So I stand by my statement. I would personally like to see KLC return to Humberside, I like them, but airlines like eastern are a necessary evil and long may they continue.

 

[Jerry]

No UK flights are currently showing as HOP operated.

Well I'd expect that the idea would be to release Cityhopper metal to operate the UK flights.

 

[Starflyer]

If all Eastern have mustered is three E190s, that's all KLC need to replace (as they have from Hop). They have been covering the shortfall between anything promised and delivered by Eastern in the meantime, so no reason to expect that this can't continue. The three Hop aircraft will be flying routes logical for a French-based operation to fly, just as the three Eastern aircraft have been flying routes logical for a UK based operator. The two are interchangeable as far as overall capacity to cover the KLC network is concerned.

The regional airlines all play a part with pilot opportunities. As it's the largest regional airline, Loganair provides the most pilots to the likes of Jet2, BA, DHL and others. If you asked Emerald (who far more UK pilots than Eastern and lose as many for one), Aurigny and others down through Blue Islands, Hebridean, Airtask, Scilly Skybus, GAMA, FlyWales and many others then I'm sure they'd say their "contribution" was just as great as Eastern. It's all in proportion. There is no automatic right to survival conveyed by how many pilots you've up-streamed to larger rivals as Flybe's example says only too well.

 

[pug]

If all Eastern have mustered is three E190s, that's all KLC need to replace (as they have from Hop). They have been covering the shortfall between anything promised and delivered by Eastern in the meantime, so no reason to expect that this can't continue. The three Hop aircraft will be flying routes logical for a French-based operation to fly, just as the three Eastern aircraft have been flying routes logical for a UK based operator. The two are interchangeable as far as overall capacity to cover the KLC network is concerned.

The regional airlines all play a part with pilot opportunities. As it's the largest regional airline, Loganair provides the most pilots to the likes of Jet2, BA, DHL and others. If you asked Emerald (who far more UK pilots than Eastern and lose as many for one), Aurigny and others down through Blue Islands, Hebridean, Airtask, Scilly Skybus, GAMA, FlyWales and many others then I'm sure they'd say their "contribution" was just as great as Eastern. It's all in proportion. There is no automatic right to survival conveyed by how many pilots you've up-streamed to larger rivals as Flybe's example says only too well.

Read my last post. Eastern have 4-5 aircraft committed to the KLC network, some of which were sourced via ex KLC ones. Not to mention some contingency. There are options for more, but there’s no use taking them whilst there is a training backlog which is something KLM are all to aware of and was attempted to be dismissed out of hand on here when in fact it’s a pretty obvious problem that isn’t isolated to T3.

Are you having a laugh? You’re telling me GAMA and Skybus and the others are sources pilots for Jet2 and the other mainline airlines? I suggest you go off and check the regs on that one and come back to me. Ever heard of a thing called ZFTT? The training bills would be significant if all NTR flight crew came through King Air or Twotter flying. Sorry but that’s a none argument I’m afraid and displays a lack of understanding. Ever heard of multi crew on aircraft with MTOW of 10 tonnes or more? CS25? Now go back to your list and revise it. Indeed eastern often take only people who have flown about in King Airs and can’t move forward… Enerald? Yea ok if you want to fork out £20,000.00 up front and live in Belfast. See also Blue Island and Aurigny. Do you see the problem now?

Loganair are not Jet2s main source of NTR recruitment. They do contribute of course, but they are not by any means the ‘main source’. I know this for a fact but I’m not about to tell you why.

Anyway the reason I brought that up is there’s a popular narrative that Eastern are the scourge of the U.K. airline industry, I’m countering that with the fact that in many airlines you’ll meet a few people who have come through that traditional natural progression and some hold positions of authority. It’s a well trodden and well respected path and you’ll find those people will be hoping they survive. After all, they are not at the whim of shareholders as other high profile failures have been.

Nobody is saying there’s a right to survival, it’s up to Eastern (ultimately RL) as to whether they survive or not. They have done so for almost 30 years. Can’t say the same for a number of others. Must do something right. Ultimately though it’s the people there who are trying to force through change, perhaps battle some of the ‘legacy’ and protect their jobs and the future of the company they work for. Is it challenging? Absolutely, but they all want it to work one way or another. Will it? Well it depends if what you’ve heard is right or not. I suspect even if they do lose the KLM contract they’ll still be there in some form. But yet I’ve not seen any evidence that this is the case and so I wait til I hear something more concrete which I’m sure I will in due course!

 

[Severn]

Just to add to the above, KLM have the following leased aircraft planned to operate their schedule (based on the current timetable):
mid-September (11x aircraft)
3x Eastern Airways E190s
6x German AIrways E190s
2x HOP E190s

mid-November (9x aircraft) (subject to change)
3x Eastern Airways E190s
5x German AIrways E190s
4x HOP E190s

Schedules are still changing now for September, so plenty of time for KLM to change the November and winter schedule. I'm not suggesting if Eastern will or won't be operating, but time will tell.

 

[Starflyer]

Read my last post. Eastern have 4-5 aircraft committed to the KLC network, some of which were sourced via ex KLC ones. Not to mention some contingency. There are options for more, but there’s no use taking them whilst there is a training backlog which is something KLM are all to aware of and was attempted to be dismissed out of hand on here when in fact it’s a pretty obvious problem that isn’t isolated to T3.

Are you having a laugh? You’re telling me GAMA and Skybus and the others are sources pilots for Jet2 and the other mainline airlines? I suggest you go off and check the regs on that one and come back to me. Ever heard of a thing called ZFTT? The training bills would be significant if all NTR flight crew came through King Air or Twotter flying. Sorry but that’s a none argument I’m afraid and displays a lack of understanding. Ever heard of multi crew on aircraft with MTOW of 10 tonnes or more? CS25? Now go back to your list and revise it. Indeed eastern often take only people who have flown about in King Airs and can’t move forward… Enerald? Yea ok if you want to fork out £20,000.00 up front and live in Belfast. See also Blue Island and Aurigny. Do you see the problem now?

Loganair are not Jet2s main source of NTR recruitment. They do contribute of course, but they are not by any means the ‘main source’. I know this for a fact but I’m not about to tell you why.

What condescending nonsense. You're clearly about a year to 18 months out of date with what's happening in the real world.

I won't post their names, but I'm well aware of several pilots who have gone from B200, BN2 and DH Twin Otter and other aircraft far below the 10-tonne MTOW threshold in Part-FCL.730.A for ZFTT training straight into the RHS of 737s and A321s. That's why the likes of TUI and Jet2 have been busy flying circuits at Newquay and Teesside all summer - because those pilots can't do ZFTT and additional sim plus base training is required.

Of the last couple of Jet2 NTR pilot courses, over half on both courses have been ex Loganair. Whether that's the norm or not then I'm not placed to say, but that's a meaningful contribution and in relation to those most recent courses, one airline is the main source. And that's not Eastern.

If you were to ask Aurigny or Emerald then you'd find they have similar issues with F/O retention as Eastern. Eastern does not occupy a unique place in this industry. Far from it. It is one of several airlines facing the same challenges and its contribution to the sector is neither extraordinary nor outstanding. If you really believe that Eastern is destined for eternal poverty versus all others because of some special and unseen characteristic, try working for one of the others in the same space. You'll soon see that this victim-culture vindication of Eastern's troubles isn't worth a candle.

But back to the main point of the topic: I see we have a poster confirming that German Airways and Hop E190s are scheduled in the KLC network this winter but no sign of Eastern E190s. As with all things, it can change. But as with all things, it might not?

 

[pug]

What condescending nonsense. You're clearly about a year to 18 months out of date with what's happening in the real world.

I won't post their names, but I'm well aware of several pilots who have gone from B200, BN2 and DH Twin Otter and other aircraft far below the 10-tonne MTOW threshold in Part-FCL.730.A for ZFTT training straight into the RHS of 737s and A321s. That's why the likes of TUI and Jet2 have been busy flying circuits at Newquay and Teesside all summer - because those pilots can't do ZFTT and additional sim plus base training is required.

Of the last couple of Jet2 NTR pilot courses, over half on both courses have been ex Loganair. Whether that's the norm or not then I'm not placed to say, but that's a meaningful contribution and in relation to those most recent courses, one airline is the main source. And that's not Eastern.

If you were to ask Aurigny or Emerald then you'd find they have similar issues with F/O retention as Eastern. Eastern does not occupy a unique place in this industry. Far from it. It is one of several airlines facing the same challenges and its contribution to the sector is neither extraordinary nor outstanding. If you really believe that Eastern is destined for eternal poverty versus all others because of some special and unseen characteristic, try working for one of the others in the same space. You'll soon see that this victim-culture vindication of Eastern's troubles isn't worth a candle.

But back to the main point of the topic: I see we have a poster confirming that German Airways and Hop E190s are scheduled in the KLC network this winter but no sign of Eastern E190s. As with all things, it can change. But as with all things, it might not?

Yes and how many hours did they have on those types before jumping over? Factorised? I assure you it’s not out of date information. Some courses have loads from Loganair (hence their current recruitment drive), some have none but others are coming from the airlines you mention. Crew retention is not an issue for Eastern at the moment, crew recruitment and training is the issue. Retention might be an issue in two years in the event that Eastern don’t lose the KLM. I know three good people who have recently joined on the ejets at their first shot at an airline job, if the contract has been lost they’ll be out of a job and sadly have few options to move elsewhere with less than 500 hours on type. I assure you that Jet2 and DHL amongst others would much rather a stream of jet time NTR jumping over than people flying puddle jumpers for years. Otherwise they have to take the FSO route like everyone else typically.

Anyway that’s beside the point, if eastern go by the wayside they won’t be the last, and it will become more expensive to train crew up onto the types that the mainline operators use. It was one argument I was using for why it would be a shame for another U.K. outfit to go to the wall. You clearly don’t see it that way and that’s fine, but I do and I’ll make no apologies for wanting it to continue no matter how rubbish eastern May or may not be to work at.

Apologies for my condescending tone, it’s something I feel quite strongly about.

 

[Starflyer]

None of the several pilots of whom I'm aware had any time on other aircraft above 10 tonnes before moving up nor had what would be classed as a significant number of hours:

Loganair DH6 F/O > Wizz A321 F/O
Airtask Captain BN2 > TUI 737 F/O
Skybus Captain BN2 & F/O DH6 > TUI 737 F/O
GAMA B200 F/O > BA CityFlyer E190 F/O

You're saying this doesn't happen. The above examples minus the individuals' names makes clear that it does. Admittedly given the fleet sizes at these operators, the absolute numbers are always going to be small. But you said

You’re telling me GAMA and Skybus and the others are sources pilots for Jet2 and the other mainline airlines? I suggest you go off and check the regs on that one and come back to me.

I have, I did, and I've come back to you to demonstrate how and why your derision was misplaced, unless you are now going to try to justify why Wizz, TUI and BACF are not "mainline" airlines.

You've the temerity to deride an unnamed operator as a CRM nightmare (which may or may not be the case) but comment here in terms such as the quote above which could equally well be described as such.

 

[pug]

None of the several pilots of whom I'm aware had any time on other aircraft above 10 tonnes before moving up nor had what would be classed as a significant number of hours:

Loganair DH6 F/O > Wizz A321 F/O
Airtask Captain BN2 > TUI 737 F/O
Skybus Captain BN2 & F/O DH6 > TUI 737 F/O
GAMA B200 F/O > BA CityFlyer E190 F/O

You're saying this doesn't happen. The above examples minus the individuals' names makes clear that it does. Admittedly given the fleet sizes at these operators, the absolute numbers are always going to be small. But you said

I have, I did, and I've come back to you to demonstrate how and why your derision was misplaced, unless you are now going to try to justify why Wizz, TUI and BACF are not "mainline" airlines.

You've the temerity to deride an unnamed operator as a CRM nightmare (which may or may not be the case) but comment here in terms such as the quote above which could equally well be described as such.

Those airlines run low hour streams that aren’t NTR. Hours are typically factorised for NTR, there’s unfortunately a subtle difference,

Anyway, this has derailed the thread significantly due to a point I was making why I personally do not want to see airlines like eastern go to the wall. Someting I won’t apologise for. I have no skin in the game and fortunately didn’t need to start at eastern.

CRM on internet forums? That’s a bit far fetched if you’ve ever read the flight crew specific sections of PPrune.. I did however apologise in my last post for appearing condescending.

 

[Len Fish]

We seem to be forgetting that the primary purpose of a passenger airline is to reliably fly passengers according to their published schedules, whether that be for a third party or for their own services and to make a profit. Any airline that can’t do this consistently is always going to struggle and be vulnerable to failure.

 

[lbaspotter]

Never in my life seen that before. KLM Embraer 190, PH-EZH has just departed runway 14 from the old 10/28 / 32/14 intersection.

 

[EX9]

The aircraft was positioning out empty.

 

[LBAYORKIE]

The aircraft was positioning out empty.

Why?

 

[Bob O'JOb]

Why?

No passengers on it.

 

[LBAYORKIE]

No passengers on it.

No, I meant why was it positioning?

 

[Finger66]

There are a few recent interesting posts on the DFF under the Eastern thread suggesting KLM have reached agreement with Unions for no outsourcing to Eastern or German A/W after 26Oct. Dont know how reliable the poster and source are but if there is any truth in it then this is surely a very worrying time for T3. It was of course detailed that HOP we're joining in this winter so could this supposed Union Deal be linked and also be some sort of misinterpretation?

Anyone on here privy to similar information?

 

[oldendays]

Nothing to add except I don't know if this date is 26 October this year or October 2026!

 

[752]

Will KLM take back their Embraer's given to Eastern? Don't think Eastern will need such a big number with not much scheduled work.

 

[KARFA]

There are a few recent interesting posts on the DFF under the Eastern thread suggesting KLM have reached agreement with Unions for no outsourcing to Eastern or German A/W after 26Oct. Dont know how reliable the poster and source are but if there is any truth in it then this is surely a very worrying time for T3. It was of course detailed that HOP we're joining in this winter so could this supposed Union Deal be linked and also be some sort of misinterpretation?

Anyone on here privy to similar information?

i know this is a minor point so i will ask for forgiveness

i think the agreement is more to do with increasing the availability of klm pilots which means they can resource these flights previously covered by wetleases, rather than a prohibition of wetleases per se.

 

[Len Fish]

Since Hop are part of Air France who in turn are part of the KLM/Air France Group, if Hop have the capacity it would make sense to keep any leasing agreement in house plus it could well be an easier sell to the Unions if they’re kicking up a fuss about the use of third party wet leases.