Flybe

[TheLocalYokel]

It would be good not only to keep the route but have a new airline, Loganair do seem to be in expansion mode not just with former flyBMI routes but others as well so fingers crossed. I do wonder when was the last time Cardiff had no flights to Glasgow?
It's also noticeable that CWL has kept it's 3 Irish routes most surprisingly Cork but lost one of it's Scottish routes and i'm wondering if it's because firstly with lower APD on the route Cork is more profitable than GLA and may bring in more Irish based passengers than Glasgow brings in with Scottish based passengers.
With Flybe still operating Geneva then i wonder if we'll still see Verona at least in the summer. They do operate it from SOU on the Q400.

I'd have thought that Geneva would be a more popular summer route than Verona. Does the summer Verona take a lot of tour package seats?

If you look at Bristol Airport, easyJet operates 10 x weekly to Geneva in summer whereas there is only a single weekly TUI flight (op by Neos) to Verona. This suggests that Geneva is far more popular than Verona. The same thing applies in winter with 21 x weekly easyJet flights to GVA in the ski season plus a couple of weekly charter flights, but only one weekly charter flight (TUI) to Verona in the ski season.

I've long been surprised that GVA does not appear year-round at CWL.

It's true that inter-UK flights attract APD at both ends so that might be a factor with Cork operating but not Glasgow.

Unless there is more than one flight a day to GLA it's not attractive for people, especially business people, who want to be there and back in the day. There is a very frequent train service between Scotland's two main cities - up to about a dozen an hour in each direction on more than one route with the quickest taking less than 45 minutes - so Flybe might have decided that with day trips to GLA out of the question people could use their EDI flights and access Glasgow by rail or bus. Even the 3 x daily EDI flight times are not great for day trips to the Scottish capital itself.

As for Loganair, when Flybe pretty well deserted CWL in early 2014, CityJet stepped in and took on the lost routes although EDI stayed with Flybe for about three months longer than some of the other routes before CityJet took it on. At one point Loganair said they would operate CWL-EDI but withdrew when they saw CityJet's proposals. Loganair had CWL in focus then, albeit for one route, so might be looking again, albeit for one route, although Loganair has a few more fish to fry these days.

Incidentally, Christine Ourmières-Widener is certainly not a good luck charm for CWL. She was CEO at CityJet when Flybe returned to the airport in 2015 in a much bigger form which ousted CityJet, much to the lady's displeasure. Business is business and she later joined Flybe as CEO, and is still in charge (for how long?) in the current downsizing operation.

 

[Jerry]

So roughly CWL has lost 3136 seats a week and 22 weekly flights (11 weekly departures) from the Flybe cull. So about a reduction of 25% which isn't too bad considering.

 

[Jerry]

I'd have thought that Geneva would be a more popular summer route than Verona. Does the summer Verona take a lot of tour package seats?

Flybe have been extending Geneva into April more but never operated it into the summer for some reason. With Verona i know TUI use the route for their packages and other travel agents as well so hopefully that might help keep the route.
The one thing though which could put people off is the aircraft, i've already seen some online comments from people saying that they'll have to fly from BRS because the jets are going and comments about the lack of a 07.00 EDI departure meaning the route isn't business friendly. It's a shame that there couldn't be an overnight aircraft for that maybe in the future!

Incidentally, Christine Ourmières-Widener is certainly not a good luck charm for CWL. She was CEO at CityJet when Flybe returned to the airport in 2015 in a much bigger form which ousted CityJet, much to the lady's displeasure. Business is business and she later joined Flybe as CEO, and is still in charge (for how long?) in the current downsizing operation.

Yes it does seem she hasn't been great for CWL and it makes me wonder if the axing of the CWL base was inevitable with her in charge.
She leaves in July so hopefully her replacement will be more CWL friendly and even if not opening up a base again then overnight more aircraft and expand the offering at Cardiff. On a general note it will be interesting to see where Flybe goes in the future and if more bases close and get operated by nightstopping aircraft.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Flybe have been extending Geneva into April more but never operated it into the summer for some reason. With Verona i know TUI use the route for their packages and other travel agents as well so hopefully that might help keep the route.

TUI takes seats for its summer Lakes & Mountains holidays on easyJet GVA flights - we're going on one again this year - so they would no doubt do the same if there was a summer route at CWL.

 

[Jerry]

TUI takes seats for its summer Lakes & Mountains holidays on easyJet GVA flights - we're going on one again this year - so they would no doubt do the same if there was a summer route at CWL.

It may be possible that Flybe only see it as a winter route or can only get slots for the winter? It would be a good route to have in the summer.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/flybe-cardiff-airport-flights-winter-16353161

Article in local press about Flybe's winter timetable. As would be expected, the article states that the airport is continuing to talk to other airlines including those already operating there with a view to increasing the airport's route portfolio.

 

[Jerry]

Not good pr for the airport but it could've been worse. Some of the comments on social media are interesting.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Not good for the airport but it could've been worse. Some of the comments on social media are interesting.

What are they saying on social media?

It's strange how some people seem to treat airports as football teams. For instance, I know people who support Bristol City who won't venture into Bristol Rovers ground even when Bristol City are playing there, and the same applies in reverse with some Bristol Rovers followers.

On a similar theme I've read a post in the not-quite moribund Wales Air Forum where a member there bemoans the winter timings of the CWL-EDI route and says, "Over my dead body will I fly from BRS". Unless he/she once had a bad experience at BRS I fail to see the logic if avoiding BRS means you inconvenience yourself.

Whenever he/she flies on a flight into CWL he/she must be bricking it that the flight isn't diverted into BRS.

There never seems to be the same feeling about railway stations or bus stations, even amongst train and bus addicts, or perhaps there is.

 

[Jerry]

What are they saying on social media?

Just the usual in blaming the airport and the WG for the lost routes and saying it should be closed down or that it's a disgrace that the airport isn't like Bristol and that Bristol is so much better. One person said that the airport is going backwards. Unfortunately it seems to be the norm for social media comments about CWL though i will admit there were positive ones in there as well saying that the airport is much better than before and it's not just normal social media in which the comments are negative but in enthuaist groups as well. I do believe that people just expect way to much from Cardiff, they look at Bristol and expect it to be like that without understanding why and if you try and explain and defend the airport you are called by some an apoligist for the airport. I just don't think people understand that a lot of it is out of the airports control.
One thing though is that generally i think a lot of people and some more in the know were surprised that the schedule was that as good as it was. I one for one wasn't expecting Dublin and Cork to continue and possibly even Paris, so it might show that Flybe either did the best they could to keep the biggest schedule possible or that the 10 year deal may not have ended with the E jets or that CWL were really persuasive!

On a similar theme I've read a post in the not-quite moribund Wales Air Forum where a member there bemoans the winter timings of the CWL-EDI route and says, "Over my dead body will I fly from BRS". Unless he/she once had a bad experience at BRS I fail to see the logic if avoiding BRS means you inconvenience yourself.

Yes i know through social media who that person is and he does a lot of trips up to Scotland and then down to London LCY for business and i don't know why isn't a great fan of BRS but has used it i believe when neccesary. In the end i doubt there isn't anyone in South Wales who flies regulary who hasn't used BRS at one time as it is the dominant airport in the area.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

I think that some people, probably not well versed about aviation, moan about their local airport whichever one it is. I don't read social media because I'm not a member of any but when it used to be possibe to read all the BRS Twitter site tweets without being a member there were numerous ones that were critical of BRS. Furthermore, whenever the local rag has a story about BRS on its web site you can be certain that people will line up to moan about the airport in the Comments section.

I remember one comment recently when someone said he or she was going to use CWL in future which is a 'proper airport'.

It's the way life is: many people always think the grass is greener over any hill.

 

[Jerry]

I think that some people, probably not well versed about aviation, moan about their local airport whichever one it is. I don't read social media because I'm not a member of any but when it used to be possibe to read all the BRS Twitter site tweets without being a member there were numerous ones that were critical of BRS. Furthermore, whenever the local rag has a story about BRS on its web site you can be certain that people will line up to moan about the airport in the Comments section.

I remember one comment recently when someone said he or she was going to use CWL in future which is a 'proper airport'.

It's the way life is: many people always think the grass is greener over any hill.

Yes some people like to complain or to have expectations way to high! I do wonder what that person means by 'proper airport'?

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Yes some people like to complain or to have expectations way to high! I do wonder what that person means by 'proper airport'?

I think it's to do with the fact that Bristol occupies a small site with a short runway. It's not uncommon for it to be described in the Comments section of the local paper's website as an airstrip in a field, that or Trumpton International.

A lot of people in the area, most of whom probably have no real interest in or knowledge of aviation, continue to pine for Filton which was never an airport in the full sense of the word anyway. They are examples of the 'grass is greener over the hill' attitude I mentioned in my previous post.

 

[Selig]

I hope a proper airline steps in to fill the void of Flybe’s withdrawal of jet aircraft and removal of its aircraft base at Cardiff.
By proper I mean an airline that has a fleet of jet aircraft like Ryanair or EasyJet that will take over the routes, build them up, and expand them.
Really, who wants to fly with a Dash 8 prop plane on holiday to Paris, Faro or Rome when they are only intended to be used as a regional commuter plane.

 

[Jerry]

Really, who wants to fly with a Dash 8 prop plane on holiday to Paris, Faro or Rome when they are only intended to be used as a regional commuter plane.

For Paris the Q400 is ideal. The reality is that it's Flybe or no one. Maybe the airport might persuade Ryanair onto Rome in the future and maybe someone like Volotea for north Italy although Flybe may well keep Verona going on the Q400 like they do at SOU.
As much as everyone would love to see them there's probably more chance of me winning the lottery than Easyjet ever operating routes out of Cardiff. Reality is Cardiff is just too small for them and they are too invested in Bristol.
So for Cardiff it's Flybe and the Q400 for the future!

 

[David_itl]

There is NOTHING improper in using the DHC8 on CWL-CDG . I would call that a typical "regional commuter " route. And even better, going off the great circle mapper, CDG is fractionally closer than EDI when putting CWL as the stating point yet there are no complaints about DHC8s going to EDI.

If' it's been good enough for Flybe to operate them on routes such as MAN-CDG, MAN-AMS and MAN-MXP then it surely is good enough to use them on similar routes out of CWL?

As for capability of the DHC8, in the past week or two, Icelandair decided that in place of a 757, they'd put on a DHC8 on Keflavik-MAN for a couple of days - that distance.. just over 1000 miles. Or the same as CWL-Faro. Don't Flybe operate this make of aircratft on Southampton-Palma? Maybe we will have to defer to Flybe and say that costs of operating a route to Faro even on a DHC8 outweigh the revenue gained.

 

[Jerry]

In the end routes operated by Q400s are better than none at all.

 

[Foxlimayankee]

Thing is, the general public will plead shock horror when they see a prop or know it's going to operate their flight. But if the price is right, they'll still book on it. If that wasn't the case, Flybe would've gone bust years ago.
A large jet is too big for CWL's domestic routes. EDI may just do OK, but as already mentioned, find an Airline that is suitable for it from CWL. FR won't be doing domestic flights any time soon (With exception of MAYBE Dublin). EZY are more than happy at BRS.

CWL now has it's domestic network salvaged, better than most of us Aviation enthusiasts expected. It's also on a more fuel efficient aircraft which benefits Flybe's bottom line and the environmental impact as well as the crew base savings.
We don't, and probably never will know which of Flybes routes up until now actually made them money. Hopefully the likes of EDI, DUB and CDG were money spinners and ORK and JER were part of the deal that CWL/WG pushed for in the network. If it is the case that EDI, DUB and CDG were profitable after all, putting a more fuel efficient aircraft on it will only benefit the route. Hopefully the saving will be passed on to the customer and can push up demand from CWL, thus making those routes more successful and popular in the long run.

Flybe has damaged it's reputation at CWL (And most other airports) recently. Hopefully changes will happen soon with the Connect/VS takeover then people will forget the past. The frequency is now there to compete with EZY & EI at BRS, price and reliability is key to these becoming succesful.

 

[Selig]

From the Jetstream 41, the Saab 340, the Fokker F27, the Fokker 50, I’ve flown them all from Cardiff over the years, and flown on the ATR 42 and 72, the Dash8 200 and 300, but not the 400.
What a relief it was when KLM introduced the Fokker F28 jets and then the Fokker 70 and 100, and phased out the turboprops. So smooth so quiet so roomy, give me a jet over a turboprop any day, although I understand as far as Cardiff Airport is concerned something is better than nothing.

 

[mathers_wales_uk]

I’ve flow on an ATR72 of awe Lingus to Dublin and a Jetstream 31 to Norwich and couldn’t see a huge issue with either.

 

[Jerry]

One of the best flights I've had was on the J41!