Cardiff: (CWL) - General Thread

[Jerry]

Applying APD rates according to size of airport has been suggested before. It was looked at by Westminster as one option several years ago but it was thought then that EU state aid rules probably excluded the idea.

Listening to the treasury person and it could be something they may well be looking at or are willing to look at again.
In the end the UK governments position hasn't changed over devolution of APD to Wales. Cardiff and Bristol are just too close and Wales in general is too intertwined with in an aviation market with English airports compared to Scotland and Northern Ireland though they seem to forget how close Newcastle is to Scotland. Simon Hart at the end seemed to be saying that if Cardiff Airport is too be successful it'll be successful due to investment in the economy and tourism etc but failed to mention how you attract the airlines to the airport to help that investment and tourism. He also mentioned about making the infrastructure better because of the airports poor geographic position.

Parliamentlive.tv

Welsh Affairs Committee

www.parliamentlive.tv

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Simon Hart at the end seemed to be saying that if Cardiff Airport is too be successful it'll be successful due to investment in the economy and tourism etc but failed to mention how you attract the airlines to the airport to help that investment and tourism.

Parliamentlive.tv

Welsh Affairs Committee

www.parliamentlive.tv

It might happen naturally if Bristol Airport loses its appeal against the rejection of its planning application by its local authority in February 2020. The public enquiry element of the appeal, to be heard by three inspectors from the Planning Inspectorate, begins on 20 July at Weston-super-Mare and is scheduled to last ten weeks, although it won't sit on every day during that period.

The airport is seeking to have its planning cap of 10 mppa raised to 12 mppa. If it fails in this and things get back to normality in a few years post-pandemic then airlines will undoubtedly look to CWL if they want to grow their Severnside operation and BRS is stuck at its current passenger cap and unable to grow further.

I presume that the Welsh Government and/or its airport company will give evidence at the appeal. Both formally objected to the BRS planning application when it was determined by the local authority.

 

[Jerry]

It might happen naturally if Bristol Airport loses its appeal against the rejection of its planning application by its local authority in February 2020.

I suppose that is a hope that Cardiff has that the application will be rejected, BRS capped and airline's like Ryanair and TUI will look to add capacity at CWL though of course the latter is not a given. It'll be interesting to see if the UK government will do that as capping BRS at 10 million could be seen to be giving CWL potentially a similar advantage as it might gain if APD was devolved given they share the same aviation market as the treasury lady stated. But of course it could be considered more publicly appealing if they rejected it on environmental grounds.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

I suppose that is a hope that Cardiff has that the application will be rejected, BRS capped and airline's like Ryanair and TUI will look to add capacity at CWL though of course the latter is not a given. It'll be interesting to see if the UK government will do that as capping BRS at 10 million could be seen to be giving CWL potentially a similar advantage as it might gain if APD was devolved given they share the same aviation market as the treasury lady stated. But of course it could be considered more publicly appealing if they rejected it on environmental grounds.

I would not bet anything substantial on the appeal outcome, assuming I was a betting man which I'm not, although initially I leant towards a successful appeal. I'm not so sure now but recently the secretary of state did not 'recover' the Stansted Airport appeal and allowed the three planning inspectors to decide which they did in favour of the airport. That involved a bigger raising of that airport's passenger cap than BRS is seeking although in percentage terms the increase was broadly the same. The STN history was different to BRS in that the previous local authority planning committee had approved the planning application but after a change in the political colour of the council they revisited the issue and rejected the application. They then barely defended their decision at the appeal to the extent that the planning inspectors awarded substantial costs against the local authority.

Much of the opposition to the BRS case is based on environmental grounds. The WG would face the same opposition from the environmental lobby if airlines came forward for whatever reason leading to a substantial number of flights at CWL. They see any airport, no matter how small, seeking to expand its flight programme as fertile ground for their 'cause'.

 

[geoff]

Jardine Norton Aviation Ltd, part of the Jardine Norton Finance Company, of Falcon Drive, Cardiff Bay, has purchased a Cessna Citation 550 G-JHEX, which is to be based at CWL, also on the same theme, the former Dragonfly Beech 200 King Air G-BVMA, which was sold to Fly Wales at Haverfordwest, has been re-registered as G-FLYD.

 

[Jerry]

Apparently VoG councillors may have voted through the first phase of this business park.

Everything we know about huge business park planned for Vale coast

There are also plans to expand Porthkerry Country Park

www.google.com

'Disastrous' decision as fourth-generation farmers to be kicked off land for business park east of Cardiff Airport

Alex Seabrook, local democracy reporter Fourth-generation farmers are set to be kicked off their land for a new business park east of Cardiff Airport, in a decision dubbed “disastrous” by the leader of the Welsh Conservatives. The Jenkins family have lived and worked at Model Farm, off Port...

nation.cymru

 

[aviatorconcorde]

Not what should be happening considering the climate emergency welsh government have declared.

Green spaces should be preserved and not for the first time welsh government are going against their own policy.

 

[Jerry]

Not what should be happening considering the climate emergency welsh government have declared.

Green spaces should be preserved and not for the first time welsh government are going against their own policy.

I think there has to be a balance otherwise you just won't build anything and the economy won't grow, i also suspect that having a business park next door will help the airport expand it's air cargo side as well. Considering Amazon are literally building a distribution centre on every corner i'd be surprised if they weren't a target for the business park especially if air cargo was involved.

 

[geoff]

When I read the announcement regarding the business park, I immediately thought of Amazon, my son who drives for a contractor on behalf of Amazon, regularly drives between Swansea and Bristol, Amazon's two main bases in the West of the UK, in addition to their distribution centres at Llanelli, Kenfig, Magor, and a second at Bristol. CWL being halfway between both their big centres would be an ideal location. With their ever increasing expansion of Prime Air, they may need another cargo depot elsewhere, at the moment they have a large depot at EMA.

 

[Jerry]

When I read the announcement regarding the business park, I immediately thought of Amazon, my son who drives for a contractor on behalf of Amazon, regularly drives between Swansea and Bristol, Amazon's two main bases in the West of the UK, in addition to their distribution centres at Llanelli, Kenfig, Magor, and a second at Bristol. CWL being halfway between both their big centres would be an ideal location. With their ever increasing expansion of Prime Air, they may need another cargo depot elsewhere, at the moment they have a large depot at EMA.

According to the article the business park will be for the aerospace industry but I'd assume anything connected to air cargo would fit into that.

 

[aviatorconcorde]

I think there has to be a balance otherwise you just won't build anything and the economy won't grow, i also suspect that having a business park next door will help the airport expand it's air cargo side as well. Considering Amazon are literally building a distribution centre on every corner i'd be surprised if they weren't a target for the business park especially if air cargo was involved.

A climate emergency is a climate emergency at the end of the day, it is a bit hypocritical in my view. We all have our role to play and it should start with the Government.

The infrastructure needed to help the airport a success such as the M4 to Five mile lane road and the M4 relief road have (rightly in my view) also been cancelled.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

A climate emergency is a climate emergency at the end of the day, it is a bit hypocritical in my view. We all have our role to play and it should start with the Government.

The infrastructure needed to help the airport a success such as the M4 to Five mile lane road and the M4 relief road have (rightly in my view) also been cancelled.

A group of academics from major universities have suggested that within ten years the only UK airports that should operate are Heathrow, Glasgow and Belfast. All other UK airports should be closed.

Furthermore, international shipping should be phased out over the next couple of decades and the Royal Navy grounded. The UK's exports and imports should be moved entirely by train (quite how that will work with the likes of America and Australasia isn't mentioned). Further elements of their plan to protect the environment include making cars smaller and only using them when full, and the reduction of train and car journeys by everyone. Oh yes, eating beef and lamb should be banned.

Residents of Wales who then want to fly, and they like everyone else in the UK would be discouraged - with such limited availability the air fares would doubtless be extremely expensive, itself a way of cutting down usage to only the wealthy - and people from Wales would have to make their way to Heathrow or Glasgow, preferably by train (or I suppose a sailing ship to Belfast might gain particular approval).

So opponents of many airports including CWL would have their way if this plan ever came to fruition as CWL like the other airports would cease to exist.

It might seem crackpot - that's my view of it - but how far along the environmental path does one go? Making airports less busy through all sorts of artificial means might be a start but some believe as these academics do that much more drastic action is necessary. Perhaps CWL, BRS and EXT should each be capped at one million passengers a year. That would no doubt mean a financial disaster for the owners but it would chime nicely with environmentalists and fellow travellers, and would be a back-door way of closing them.

With countries such as China and India building more airports it really does seem like the nose, spite and face conundrum if the UK unilaterally chooses to all but abandon its aviation industry.

The subject is being discussed at some length in the Global Warming Global Cooling thread in the Current Affairs section of F4A.

 

[geoff]

I see Easyjet are to commence a service to SSH, which of course one of the routes WIZZ air were going to operate. CWL are really suffering at the moment, but they are not helping themselves, by not updating the news section of their website, they are still showing a WIZZ air service to Jersey from weeks ago, and no formal announcement of the cancelation of WIZZ air services. We in Wales seem to be in the wilderness, when it comes to new air services.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

I see Easyjet are to commence a service to SSH, which of course one of the routes WIZZ air were going to operate. CWL are really suffering at the moment, but they are not helping themselves, by not updating the news section of their website, they are still showing a WIZZ air service to Jersey from weeks ago, and no formal announcement of the cancelation of WIZZ air services. We in Wales seem to be in the wilderness, when it comes to new air services.

One of my pet hates with airlines and airports. It's not just CWL, they all seem to do it.

A new route or new airline is announced with a big fanfare then when it's either dropped or delayed in opening the silence is deafening. So the man or woman in the street who might have no interest in aviation other than as a means for getting from A to B will remember their local airport previously announcing Airline A beginning flights locally including to where they want to go. The good citizens then waste time looking for such flights only to eventually learn they've been axed or delayed in start-up.

Not only is it unprofessional not to announce delays in opening or axing, it's also extremely discourteous to potential customers.

 

[Jerry]

Airports don't like putting out bad news! They might think the press coverage is enough.
The Wizz announcement is really disappointing, I'd expect that the airport was hoping having them operate over the winter would help with the recovery.
At least we have April 2022 to look forward too now and bookings might have helped them gauge potential demand.

 

[Aviador]

Not what should be happening considering the climate emergency welsh government have declared.

Green spaces should be preserved and not for the first time welsh government are going against their own policy.

The climate and weather in general has always fascinated me and without a doubt the weather has changes during my lifetime. Whether this is a climate "emergency" or not is another debate. The "data" providing the science with the "evidence" to support man-made climate change is somewhat ropey to say the least. Actual data from when records began only a brief time ago in the Earths history is often disputed as inaccurate. Temperatures are often recorded in hot urban centres where the the urban sprawl holds in the heat. You will often see Heathrow Airport reported as the hotest place in the country as an example.

Anyway, not saying I agree totally with this man but he puts up an interesting debate:

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Loganair route to Edinburgh getting a bit of advertisement thanks to the environmental lobby!
“Countries such as France and have started to restrict internal flights where transport options such as trains are available” he continued.
They've used France as an example but don't mention that the French ban is up to 3 hours by train, Cardiff to Edinburgh takes 7 hours.

Concerns Cardiff to Edinburgh flights out of step with climate emergency

Loganair will run five flights a week from next week, but campaigners say the move will inhibit the Government's vital climate goals.

www.thenational.wales

A response to Jerry's post in the CWL Loganair thread as it goes beyond Loganair.

I've been keeping in touch with Bristol Airport's appeal against their planning application refusal by the local authority. The planning enquiry before three planning inspectors of England's Planning Inspectorate is streamed live on YouTube and began its third week today. It is expected to continue until October with a decision announced late this year or early next.

Last week was taken up largely by forecasting and one of the seven parties accredited to the planning enquiry - the Parish Councils Airport Association (it represents 22 parish councils in the vicinity of Bristol Airport) - was particularly keen to emphasise that there is no need for further expansion at BRS (that airport wants to increase its planning cap from 10 mppa to 12 mppa) because airports such as Cardiff (especially) and Exeter have spare capacity. The PCCA's expert witnesses suggested there is over 6 mppa spare capacity at CWL and EXT combined.

That's one leg of the PCCA's objection to the BRS appeal. Another is climate change. What they don't address is that extra flights from CWL and/or EXT would create the same amount of emissions as the same number of extra flights from BRS. Their arguments are selective in the same way that their fellow travellers have unrealistically compared three-hour rail journeys in France with a seven-hour rail journey between the capital cities of Wales and Scotland.

Distortion like this is grist to the mill to the environmental lobby.

 

[Jerry]

Their arguments are selective in the same way that their fellow travellers have unrealistically compared three-hour rail journeys in France with a seven-hour rail journey between the capital cities of Wales and Scotland.

I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't know what the limit for journey time was for France, it does appear that with many they see a 7 hour rail journey as a viable alternative option to flying. Reality is if CWL didn't have the flights people like me would just use Bristol and London often driving there for a lot longer than if going to CWL. The question many do ask though is how does owning an airport and preferably a successful one as well go with their old climate emergency declaration.

 

[geoff]

Many in the environmental lobby ,like to blame airlines as the cause of large amounts of air pollution, but I am sure I read somewhere not so long ago, that the aviation industry, only contributes about 2% of the overall cause of pollution, and with newer planes and engines in the future, it will contribute even less.

 

[Jerry]

Many in the environmental lobby ,like to blame airlines as the cause of large amounts of air pollution, but I am sure I read somewhere not so long ago, that the aviation industry, only contributes about 2% of the overall cause of pollution, and with newer planes and engines in the future, it will contribute even less.

Aviation is an easy target. It's considered a luxury by many and not necessary yet employs millions of people around the world and connects the world in a way the world has never been connected before.