Doncaster Sheffield - General Thread

[752]

Of course he puts a positive spin on things? Now everyone is jumping on Yorkshire Post, as usual everyone else is wrong but the DSA fans

 

[Snackbar]

Mark Chadwick has posted this;

Great news today another milestone achieved with the government Subsidy Advisory Unit.

Some positive feedback in relation to the Subsidy proposed to FlyDoncaster.

The new company that's been set up to manage the project.

As far as I am aware, the next stage is to agree the release of gainshare funds from SYMCA.

Im told that City of Doncaster Council has there Full Council meeting tomorrow and an update from Mayor Ros is expected.

It's been reported in the Yorkshire Post today
and perhaps the YP is trying to sell newspapers
That's there job honestly though !!

let's use a headline that perhaps doesn't quite ring true to cause a fuss and sell some news papers.

One last thing even with the controversial headline used by the Yorkshire Post

They still have a soon to be announced international operator for the day to day running of our airport.

#SaveDSA #saveDSAairspace #syorksairportcity

Is he reading the same report as everyone else or is he being fed from elsewhere?

Only he could put spin on that report from the SAU. I wonder why he didn’t put a link to the report so people could form their own opinions…..

 

[752]

All smoke and mirrors.

He reports Ros has an announcement tomorrow, will be interesting time ahead f

 

[pug]

Seems that way. No private airport investor, so the Council set up their own company, who will seek to find an operator, tempted by huge subsidies and not paying a penny back for 10 years, with the subsidies effectively given to the Council owned company by the Council/South Yorkshire Mayor.

No wonder self sufficient airports won't be happy.about it. I wonder what the South Yorkshire Mayor will make of this report, given the fact its littered with not so subtle criticisms? Seems to me that things are not going well and the pressure is mounting.

It’s being reported/misunderstood that CDC have failed to secure an operator. This is not the case, the CDC failed to reach an agreement to secure an operator who would invest. The latest is that the operator will be ‘a major international airport operator’ which will form part of a SPV to run and operate the airport but because there is no private sector investor the CDC will lend the SPV £105m (or it equates to a grant of £89m) to be paid back below commercial interest rates ‘when cashflow allows’. The SAU report states that they do not intend on paying anything for the first ten years. So is it a loan or a grant? SAU firmly believe it constitutes a grant. Or in other words a public subsidy.

So the business case is flimsy at best, they have made base assumptions on passenger figures higher than the peak value under Peel which is obviously problematic, this was highlighted by the SAU.

It looks like a full council meeting is happening tomorrow, would be interesting to see how Ros Jones spins this. She was dreadful last time when she had the time to prepare, I wonder how she’ll perform tomorrow (though I assume she’ll have had advanced notice of the reports findings?).

Doncaster Sheffield Airport: £105m plans to reopen the site revealed in government document

£105m plans to reopen Doncaster Sheffield Airport have been revealed in a government document seen by the Free Press this evening.

www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk

I expect the DFP piece to be a sign of things to come from CDC. Gloss over the negative and just focus on their agenda to ‘reinvigorate the economy of Doncaster and South Yorkshire’. Full steam ahead, still?

 

[Snackbar]

It’s being reported/misunderstood that CDC have failed to secure an operator. This is not the case, the CDC failed to reach an agreement to secure an operator who would invest. The latest is that the operator will be ‘a major international airport operator’ which will form part of a SPV to run and operate the airport but because there is no private sector investor the CDC will lend the SPV £105m (or it equates to a grant of £89m) to be paid back below commercial interest rates ‘when cashflow allows’. The SAU report states that they do not intend on paying anything for the first ten years. So is it a loan or a grant? SAU firmly believe it constitutes a grant. Or in other words a public subsidy.

So the business case is flimsy at best, they have made base assumptions on passenger figures higher than the peak value under Peel which is obviously problematic, this was highlighted by the SAU.

It looks like a full council meeting is happening tomorrow, would be interesting to see how Ros Jones spins this. She was dreadful last time when she had the time to prepare, I wonder how she’ll perform tomorrow (though I assume she’ll have had advanced notice of the reports findings?).

Doncaster Sheffield Airport: £105m plans to reopen the site revealed in government document

£105m plans to reopen Doncaster Sheffield Airport have been revealed in a government document seen by the Free Press this evening.

www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk

I expect the DFP piece to be a sign of things to come from CDC. Gloss over the negative and just focus on their agenda to ‘reinvigorate the economy of Doncaster and South Yorkshire’. Full steam ahead, still?

The SAU states the operator will act in a “consultancy” basis whatever that means - it’s not even a JV! I presume they will be contracted to operate the airport but will they bring any cash??
On the loans - just to add £60m will the be paid over a period of up to 50 years as and when cash flow allows and £40m over 25 years…..this just shows how marginal the business case is!
Full steam ahead no doubt but given CDC state a 20% of LBAs and 16% of MANs (Really??) displacement of passenger traffic to DSA expect legal challenges…..

 

[White Heather]

The SAU states the operator will act in a “consultancy” basis whatever that means - it’s not even a JV! I presume they will be contracted to operate the airport but will they bring any cash??
On the loans - just to add £60m will the be paid over a period of up to 50 years as and when cash flow allows and £40m over 25 years…..this just shows how marginal the business case is!
Full steam ahead no doubt but given CDC state a 20% of LBAs and 16% of MANs (Really??) displacement of passenger traffic to DSA expect legal challenges…..

Even that is rubbish. No way will they take 20% of LBA passengers. They're in dreamland..

 

[pug]

Even that is rubbish. No way will they take 20% of LBA passengers. They're in dreamland..

Yet that’s their clear intention which I’m sure LBA will be poised to challenge legally given the nature of the grant.

 

[White Heather]

Yet that’s their clear intention which I’m sure LBA will be poised to challenge legally given the nature of the grant.

I doubt 20% of LBA passengers live in the South Yorkshire area and whilst some would consider going to DSA, I doubt they, plus all Wizz and TUi LBA passengers added together would amount to 20% of LBA passengers....and that's assuming both those airlines left LBA and operated solely from DSA.

Wizz are reported to have said they won't, and that LBA is where their passengers are. Yet within the report, there's clear reference by CDC to a claim that they are better placed than competing airports to handle Eastern European routes as they are closer to where these passengers want to be. Really? Before Brexit, maybe. Now I wouldn't be so sure.

 

[pug]

I doubt 20% of LBA passengers live in the South Yorkshire area and whilst some would consider going to DSA, I doubt they, plus all Wizz and TUi LBA passengers added together would amount to 20% of LBA passengers....and that's assuming both those airlines left LBA and operated solely from DSA.

Wizz are reported to have said they won't, and that LBA is where their passengers are. Yet within the report, there's clear reference by CDC to a claim that they are better placed than competing airports to handle Eastern European routes as they are closer to where these passengers want to be. Really? Before Brexit, maybe. Now I wouldn't be so sure.

Well they’ve made their intentions known now, something the incumbent will know all to well and may use to their advantage I feel.

Still interested to know why RCA made an input. Perhaps they’ve been keeping a keen eye on proceedings for other reasons

 

[Finger66]

Is Chadwick in some way related to Ben Houchen. They seem to spout similar narratives.
And does anyone remember Private Frazer from Dads Army? "We are all doomed: Doomed I tell ya"
Do I need to go on .......

 

[White Heather]

Well they’ve made their intentions known now, something the incumbent will know all to well and may use to their advantage I feel.

Still interested to know why RCA made an input. Perhaps they’ve been keeping a keen eye on proceedings for other reasons

Perhaps RCA are more interested in stated plans for other aviation related industries at DSA, (eg aircraft painting) which already exist at Norwich Airport and which are now subject to new competition at the likes of Teesside, again thanks to politically sourced subsidies.

 

[pug]

Perhaps RCA are more interested in stated plans for other aviation related industries at DSA, (eg aircraft painting) which already exist at Norwich Airport and which are now subject to new competition at the likes of Teesside, again thanks to politically sourced subsidies.

Quite right, they also have a former DSA MD amongst their workforce who will be well placed to comment.

 

[752]

Even that is rubbish. No way will they take 20% of LBA passengers. They're in dreamland..

So DSA are stating they are trying to take over 800k of LBA Pax and 4.8M of MAN PAX? Don't make me P1ss..

DSA couldn't even scrape 2M in 17 years.

What TUI offer from LBA is minimal and they have always had a token gesture at LBA even when DSA was operational, I highly doubt TUI would pull out.

This case needs pulling apart it is built of exaggerated figures. Look how DSA MK1 preformed first time round..

One I am surprised about is EMA not raising any concerns. Surely their PAX / CARGO ops was / would be one they would look at trying to poach.. Unless MAG just don't give a F* and see it as its meant to be.. laughing stock.

I thought / did here RCA was interested in running.. obviously not. good for them for raising valid concerns.

 

[Snackbar]

Even that is rubbish. No way will they take 20% of LBA passengers. They're in dreamland..

Don’t forget those are the numbers they've had to use to support their business case which is needed to convince people to release the actual gainshare funds. These are the same numbers they also used to try and convince two private investors who after due diligence walked away….This airport will be heavily leveraged for at least the first 10 years and most likely significantly longer. This will distract investors and the ability to draw down further borrowing especially if it remains in some form of public ownership significantly limiting any growth ambitions.
It’s one thing to put numbers in a business case, it’s another to actually deliver them as evidenced by MME.

 

[752]

Don’t forget those are the numbers they've had to use to support their business case which is needed to convince people to release the actual gainshare funds. These are the same numbers they also used to try and convince two private investors who after due diligence walked away….This airport will be heavily leveraged for at least the first 10 years and most likely significantly longer. This will distract investors and the ability to draw down further borrowing especially if it remains in some form of public ownership significantly limiting any growth ambitions.
It’s one thing to put numbers in a business case, it’s another to actually deliver them as evidenced by MME.

All you have to do is look at the passenger statistics and its not the most overwhelming read.. a tiny bit of research and you have your proper answers, not the hot air DSA council are trying to spin.


Looks like LBA CEO has hit the papers also, the DSA brigade will have something to say on the matter. LBA trying to stop DSA because they are "threatened"... I don't think. A bit like Sheffield Arena tried to stop Leeds Arena being built. Swings and roundabouts hey.

"Unfair competition": Leeds Bradford Airport boss hits out at plan to give Doncaster Sheffield Airport £90m public subsidy

The boss of Leeds Bradford Airport has hit out at plans to provide a grant of almost £90m in public funds to reopen Doncaster Sheffield Airport.

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk

 

[pug]

All you have to do is look at the passenger statistics and its not the most overwhelming read.. a tiny bit of research and you have your proper answers, not the hot air DSA council are trying to spin.

View attachment 31836
Looks like LBA CEO has hit the papers also, the DSA brigade will have something to say on the matter. LBA trying to stop DSA because they are "threatened"... I don't think. A bit like Sheffield Arena tried to stop Leeds Arena being built. Swings and roundabouts hey.

"Unfair competition": Leeds Bradford Airport boss hits out at plan to give Doncaster Sheffield Airport £90m public subsidy

The boss of Leeds Bradford Airport has hit out at plans to provide a grant of almost £90m in public funds to reopen Doncaster Sheffield Airport.

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk

If you look at those stats, the quietest years in the airports history were the years when a credible international airport operator - Vantage - owned and operated the airport.

The fact that this is being ignored, as Rod Jones mumbled ‘it’s not appropriate to comment on a previous entity’, is staggering.

No surprise that CDC are spinning a positive.

 

[Snackbar]

All you have to do is look at the passenger statistics and its not the most overwhelming read.. a tiny bit of research and you have your proper answers, not the hot air DSA council are trying to spin.

View attachment 31836
Looks like LBA CEO has hit the papers also, the DSA brigade will have something to say on the matter. LBA trying to stop DSA because they are "threatened"... I don't think. A bit like Sheffield Arena tried to stop Leeds Arena being built. Swings and roundabouts hey.

"Unfair competition": Leeds Bradford Airport boss hits out at plan to give Doncaster Sheffield Airport £90m public subsidy

The boss of Leeds Bradford Airport has hit out at plans to provide a grant of almost £90m in public funds to reopen Doncaster Sheffield Airport.

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk

All you have to do is look at the passenger statistics and its not the most overwhelming read.. a tiny bit of research and you have your proper answers, not the hot air DSA council are trying to spin.

View attachment 31836
Looks like LBA CEO has hit the papers also, the DSA brigade will have something to say on the matter. LBA trying to stop DSA because they are "threatened"... I don't think. A bit like Sheffield Arena tried to stop Leeds Arena being built. Swings and roundabouts hey.

"Unfair competition": Leeds Bradford Airport boss hits out at plan to give Doncaster Sheffield Airport £90m public subsidy

The boss of Leeds Bradford Airport has hit out at plans to provide a grant of almost £90m in public funds to reopen Doncaster Sheffield Airport.

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk

Depending how CDC respond to the competition points raised in the SAU expect this to end in litigation…. The market impact disruption numbers CDC have put forward actually make it more likely.

 

[pug]

Depending how CDC respond to the competition points raised in the SAU expect this to end in litigation…. The market impact disruption numbers CDC have put forward actually make it more likely.

The report also seeks to be questioning the latent demand in the region, I can’t recall the exact wording but it was written along the lines that whilst they claim the airport will attract passengers away from other airports the main focus will be on routes where there is no overlap, but they went on to say that this doesn’t seem to exist. Inherently LBA will have grounds to challenge, not because they are afraid of losing business (as some have been stating elsewhere) but because it saturates the market and weakens bargaining power which intimately results in less choice for the consumer rather than more.

 

[752]

The report also seeks to be questioning the latent demand in the region, I can’t recall the exact wording but it was written along the lines that whilst they claim the airport will attract passengers away from other airports the main focus will be on routes where there is no overlap, but they went on to say that this doesn’t seem to exist. Inherently LBA will have grounds to challenge, not because they are afraid of losing business (as some have been stating elsewhere) but because it saturates the market and weakens bargaining power which intimately results in less choice for the consumer rather than more.

Would love to know what routes would be operated without an overlap..

Airlines simply will not operate from DSA on routes that do not overlap, it leave very little / no choice.

TUI for example - no overlap from previous operations Cancun, Orlando, Egypt.. a few more maybe?

Say Ryanair/easyJet went in, your telling me they wouldn't/not allowed to operate the bread and butter PMI,ALC,TFS... alright then.

 

[pug]

Would love to know what routes would be operated without an overlap..

Airlines simply will not operate from DSA on routes that do not overlap, it leave very little / no choice.

TUI for example - no overlap from previous operations Cancun, Orlando, Egypt.. a few more maybe?

Say Ryanair/easyJet went in, your telling me they wouldn't/not allowed to operate the bread and butter PMI,ALC,TFS... alright then.

They seem to be arguing that the airlines and routes that decamped to other airports only did so on a temporary basis whilst this whole thing gets sorted out, implying that these airlines will simply return as soon as the airport opens. Therefore by that logic the routes are DSA’s and LBA has just borrowed them.