Road, Rail & Access Issues

[michael]

Just to add to the discussion, I ventured onto airport property for the first time in a couple of months yesterday to drop my wife off for a lunchtime flight. I didn't 'set foot' onto the airport as I didn't get out of the car but I certainly did 'set tyre' on to the airport because I drove through the drop off area. By my reckoning I was there for no more than 45 seconds but I happily paid the £2 drop off fee. (I have to say that at first I was against the charge but when all the arguments are heard it is £2 well spent in my opinion). But for the first time yesterday I saw a free alternative or at least I did if I was reading it correctly - some bright yellow signs saying 1 hour for free in the long stay carparks. So you see,' Leedslad ' and others, unless I've read it wrong there is an alternative, albeit meaning a slightly longer walk or a free bus ride!

 

[dmrodgers]

Was in the airport yesterday to pick up passengers from Dubai using KLM vis Amsterdam. Not sure what all the fuss is about, wanted a cup of tea whilst waiting and the landside cafe wanted £2.19 for the priviledge. Now that's what i call a rip off yet lots of people were happlity paying the charge, no doubt the same one's complaining about being dropped off at the door.

 

[leedslad]

Leedslad

Lets for argument sake say that the Mr O'leary, Mr Meeson's and Mr Stelios of the world decided to accept all the additional charges that once were included in the price of an airline ticket. We'd be left in the same situation as the pre low cost airline years where the ticket price would double or even triple.

But if they accept the average drop off revenue per customer (say £1 each), then fares would go up £1 only?...

No hotel, supermarket etc charges these so why an airport?...

 

[Aviador]

Leedslad

Lets for argument sake say that the Mr O'leary, Mr Meeson's and Mr Stelios of the world decided to accept all the additional charges that once were included in the price of an airline ticket. We'd be left in the same situation as the pre low cost airline years where the ticket price would double or even triple.

But if they accept the average drop off revenue per customer (say £1 each), then fares would go up £1 only?...

No hotel, supermarket etc charges these so why an airport?...

No you're missing the point. The airline charges only cover 50% of overall revenue. So if you want the airline ticket to reflect the overall cost then you need to include more than just pick-up and drop-off charges.

 

[leedslad]

I appreciate that, but I wonder how much the only extra cost anyone is really complaining about is the £2 fee even if dropping off for less than 10 mins. Until very recently the airport didn't have this revenue anyway. The only cost anyone is asking they absorb is this one - hence it would have very little effect on fares?...

 

[Jordan-34092]

No hotel, supermarket etc charges these so why an airport?...

Supermarkets don't charge this as they ain't allowed as part of the planning agreement they gain from the local council, example Asda in shipley had to agree to allow customers to park there cars there for free for two hours, and as for hotels they earn enough money from the actual rooms, bars, restaurants and added extra's, such as wifi, so they don't need to charge.

Until very recently the airport didn't have this revenue anyway.

Until recently the Airport was owned by the local Councils which meant they had no need to charge to drop off or pick up as the roads inside the airport would have been classed as public roads and therefore replaced using money from the council budget.

Now the airport is owned by a private business and the airport is now a business, and what do business need to do? earn a profit, something LBA doesn't from the Landing slots alone, other factors need to be added to ensure this, IE retail space, fast track security, Premier lounge, £2 drop off/pick up.

 

[White Heather]

Another key factor you are forgetting Leedslad, is that in addition to LBA having to find the other half of the £29m per year running costs, and the cost of carrying out on airport works such as the drainage lagoons (to satisfy environmental regs), they have ALSO had to fund road alterations (eg Dynley Arms cross roads), provide a subsidy for public transport, which increases incrementally as passenger numbers increase, and spend money on various other schemes and plans, all at the insistence of the Council who forced LBA to do these things in return for planning consent. All things that the councils failed to do in 50 years of ownership. Oh, and on top of that, there is the small matter of £11m to upgrade the terminal this year, bringing the total outgoings this year to somewhere in the region of £45m. Around £15m comes from airlines and that won't significantly increase unless the airport attracts airlines such as Etihad and ends its reliance on low cost carriers. That, frankly is unlikely. So this year alone, there is probably a deficit of £30m. The projected income from car parking has reduced due to the off site parking sites being approved on appeal, so the only other source of income to LBA is the retail income from renting shops and cafes etc in the terminal.

Sorry, but if the airport took your line an didn't charge for the 1 minute drop offs, they would make very little because the vast majority of people would make damned sure they were in and out within the deadline to avoid paying. The previous charge of £1 for up to 10 minutes didn't work because drivers wouldn't go in the drop off area when picking up passengers, because they were nevere quite sure how long it would be before they came out of the terminal. The result was that they clogged up local streets and parked illegally. Extending how long you can park but increasing the fee was part of the plan to try and stop people parking up all over the place rather than waiting in the drop off and pick up zone. Obviously it also brought in more income, so served two purposes. Its not as though they didn't offer a free alternative, and most people now know its there. Nobody has to pay the £2 charge.

You have again mentioned that you would not object so much if an alternative was available such as the train. But the train would cost more than £2! And instead of £2 for a family of 4 in a car it would be 4 x the train fare = considerably more expensive. I don't understand your logic at all. There is of course the bus, but that would also cost considerably more than £2.

Despite the fact that the reasons for the charge and the need to make a profit have been explained several times, I am not sure you are taking it on board as you haven't actually made any alternative suggestion as to where LBA are supposed to find the money to keep the airport going. Bridgepoint are a profit making organisation, with shareholders, and is not a charity or public facility. We all have to get used to it and paying a drop off charge is here to stay, whichever airport you choose to go to. You can either pay it to your local airport and help it develop, or pay a larger drop off fee to Manchester, plus the extra travel costs, and help surpress development of your local airport. Your choice but I know what my choice would be.

 

[leedslad]

The argument keeps being made that by charging for drop off that this allows lower fares. Perhaps true, but in the end the passenger still pays so not really valid from a customer perspective...

The argument keeps being made that the airport has to meet it's runnings costs somehow - but so do supermarkets, hotels, leisure centres, train stations, bus stations and cinemas yet none of these choose to charge a drop off fee, instead recouping these costs through direct sales, not indirect charges.

The argument keeps being made that it is possible to avoid the fee. True but since this will add perhaps 10 minutes to the drop off process few will bother as it's not so viable (couple mins extra drive around the long way into long stay, then much longer walk) - this is the perception I have anyway?..

The argument keeps being made that the airport will lose a fortune, when in reality it has only had this income for around a year anyway?

The argument keeps being made that people spend money on expensive beer, food and coffee once inside the airport - but this is their choice to do so, and they get something in return. The drop off fee is in reality not that avoidable and you get 60 seconds on their tarmac.

I don't argue that the airport doens't have the right to make a profit, I do want it to grow. I object to all these extra little costs being added on everywhere:

Oh there's a flight for £60...
Hang on though it costs £6 to check in, £6 to pay for the ticket, £2 in some EU tax levy, £6 fuel surcharge £4 in airport drop off fees etc etc. All I want to know is the total cost of the ticket, including all unavoidable fees is £84. It was bad enough when it was just the airlines doing it, now it's the airports too. As I say, how far are we from charging to use other essential airport facilities? £2 terminal entrance fee anyone? Well you are using their facilities and they have to cover their costs...

As for the train being more expensive - I really wouldn't object to that (the matter here is not really one of cost, but one of pricipal to me). It's the fact that there is no alternative realistic way from the suburbs to the airport than by car (2 buses, one of which would be regular suburban bus and cost would be more than car anyway, and may not run on time). I wouldn't even be bothered if the drop off charges were being "saved up" to pay for a rail link! It would also then act as an incentive to take the train, once the train link was in place.

Plus finally, you have to remember most on this forum are looking at this issue from a plane spotting, airport loving, LBA obsessed view point (nothing wrong with that by the way), but whilst I support the airport, am not quite so obsessed as you will note from some of my uninformed questions on other threads. I see this more impartially from the view point of a regular customer, frustrated at the endless implementation of incremental pricing. Let's face it £2 for less than 10 mins on their tarmac is a total RIP OFF... Why hide behind this and not just charge an "airport development fee"?...

 

[Jordan-34092]

The argument keeps being made that it is possible to avoid the fee. True but since this will add perhaps 10 minutes to the drop off process few will bother as it's not so viable (couple mins extra drive around the long way into long stay, then much longer walk) - this is the perception I have anyway?..

For that extra 10 minutes you get 60 minutes of free parking time in the long stay car park, and then there the free shuttle bus for the lazy people who don't like walking 2 minutes around to the terminal.

Let's face it £2 for less than 10 mins on their tarmac is a total RIP OFF... Why hide behind this and not just charge an "airport development fee"?...

Actually you will find that it's £2 for the first half an hour then goes up to £5 for the first hour then an extra £5 per hour on top of the first hour.

So really your getting 30 minutes for £2 and not 10 minutes like you said.

 

[Seasider]

I have read with great interest all the comments about the £2 charge for drop off but only one person (michael, I think) has mentioned that you don't have to pay anything and you can take 60 mins to do so.
It is a sad reflection on our society today that people have to be transported from "door-to-door". I admit that some people have difficulty in walking but there is a free bus to take them to the Terminal.
Why all this discussion about having to pay to drop off when you don't have to. End of discussion! (I hope)

 

[SNOWMAN]

i totally agree with you seasider i am sick of reading all this crap about it its time to put it to bed. sm1

 

[leedslad]

Sorry not very good at biting my (online) tongue. Kept telling myself I wasn't going to reply but then can't help myself.

I don't think either camp are likely to change their views so as you say not worth continually debating on here (I still disagree).

Just found out from reading elsewhere the airport also now charges to use the trollies too?! Very similar argument to this I guess, another charge I disagree with (not that it particularly affects me personally). It's just another cost, added on that you don't realise, that you now have to consider separately.

Like the drop off fee, technically it is avoidable yes, but also like the drop off fee many consider it part of the service they've already paid for in the air ticket.

I really do worry what's next? Charge to use the loos? Again I don't dispute the fact the airport must make a profit, but I do think these charges should be met by the airlines and passed on in ticket costs - either way the end passenger has to pay so it won't matter if fares go up a little by the same amount...

 

[Jordan-34092]

Leedslad you got to understand though the airport is a business, and just like any other business it needs to make a profit, it's no good operating the airport if it can't make enough money to be able to run itself. All these little 'Extra's' are only added cause they need to be like people have said landing slots don't make them any money these days, especially with the likes of Ryanair.

 

[leedslad]

But this is what I am saying. I DO understand this, but would rather pay a higher air fare (as result of higher landing fees), or alternatively higher food and drink costs as a result of higher rental charges.

It would still be costing me the same, but I'd know upfront what my costs were. Charging extra £1/£2/£3 here there and everywhere (both airlines and airports) is both annoying and seems somewhat sneaky.

Not only this but it makes comparing fares very difficult.

Not sure it's a problem specific to LBA either, perhaps an industry problem. As a paying customer I don't want all these "hidden" costs. The fact that trollies and drop off were free for many many years only highlights the problem.

Anyway will try not to speak anymore on the matter! I don't agree with it, I understand the airport must make a profit, I think it should do it by other means.

 

[Aviador]

LeedsLad

If the airport could make the difference through higher air fares don't you think they would have already done it.

Just a quick recap. Leedslad and others disagree with the airports £2 charge for picking up and dropping off outside the front of the terminal. Others disagree.

Whatever our opinion is on this matter, the airport still offers FREE parking for an hour with a FREE ride to the terminal on a bus which really kind of makes the argument against the £2 charge seem pointless.

Completely off topic comment about trolleys charges but the airport contracted out the ownership of the trolleys so the company responsible (Bagport) has to run, maintain and replace them when necessary.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

[offtopic]This is not just applicable to LBA but most of the ancillary charges levied are avoidable if passengers wish.

As Aviador points out, there are alternatives to paid drop-off parks and passengers don't have to spend anything in the retail outlets if they don't want to or pay for fast-track security at those airports that feature it.

The same thing applies to luggage trolley charges in that most modern suitcases are wheeled and easily manoeuvrable in themselves. My wife and I, certainly no longer spring chickens, manage quite easily without receourse to luggage trolleys. We don't even bother with them at airports that still provide them free.

None of this is what airports want to hear of course and most people submit to one or more of the ancillary charges - many without demur, some with reluctance.[/offtopic]

 

[Aviador]

[textarea]Airport unveils ‘free drop-off’ places but still no taxi facility

A 50-place ‘free drop-off’ area has been agreed by bosses at Leeds Bradford airport amid concerns about taxis stopping on the surrounding roads.

http://www.wharfedaleobserver.co.uk/new ... _facility/[/textarea]

Confirmation of what we already know.

 

[lbaspotter]

Just thought I’d let you know that a new bus service tender has gone out to restore the 787 Leeds-Bradford Airport to York route according to BBC Radio York today.

3 companies were mentioned to have so far tendered for the service, which included Harrogate Coach Travel, Trandev York and Centrebus. First in York were not mentioned, But I would be surprised if they haven’t as well.

Also a routing wasn’t mentioned but surely a York - Tadcaster - Boston Spar -Collingham - Harewood House - Pool - Airport would work a lot better compared to the last attempt.

 

[Jordan-34092]

I'm opting for transdev better company all round.

[ Post made via Android ]

 

[Aviador]

Thanks for posting that LBAspotter. Wasn't the new funding for the York route put in place by the airport as part of the planning process for the terminal extension? If so, is there a chance this could be pulled before it even starts if the airport decides to cancel the terminal development because of the problems it's having with the council, or is the funding for the route already in place?