Infrastructure, Construction & Developments

[Deleted member 8277]

This question re lifts has popped up many times. I think its a red herring.

The lifts will be high capacity, operating only across two floors. They'll operate like a shuttle - if at the bottom, go up; if at the top, go down. I suggest that 4 lifts is heavily over-spec'd in case of breakdowns, and in reality most of the time lifts will have only a handful of people in. In any case, with 4 lifts operating concurrently i find it very unlikely that there will be a wait of more than a few seconds to get in - it's likely there will be one with its doors open on the ground floor, one with its doors open on the first floor, one travelling downwards and one travelling upwards at all times and, with a total journey of probably no more than 10 seconds up or down, there'll be a door opening very regularly.

The only gripe really likely is that the doors will probably take longer to open and close than the time for the actual vertical journey - but that is the modern world for you.

The lifts replace escalators which generally, in my view, use space inefficiently. The space opened up where the escalators were previously situated provides plenty of circulation space at the back of the check-in areas - which is basically non-existent currently - whilst also providing significant extra space on the first floor for security or for addition commercial use - as well as making everything much brighter.

Of course, you are probably right that in an ideal world building in a sandbox without space constraints, escalators (lots of them) would probably be a better solution overall. But we dont have that here.

From the plans i saw previously, i think there are stair cores either side of the lift lobby, if people are really desperate.

Think again about the lifts, they on demand by pressing the button like all lifts and they seem to work independently so if you dont press the button the lift dont come, I have seen people only press the middle 2 lifts buttons so only those lift operate and they all pile into them, another pain is the straddlers into the lift, you could have a lift ready to go and a pax appears 15m away then another a few meters behind then a numpty will hold the lift for them instead of letting the doors close and let them get the next one........there are 4 lifts (if they all operate) so use them all.

 

[Nibbles]

New scanners or not I feel the queues are not going away having seen the new security area and the queues already that build up for the lifts when the departure lanes are full.

Sizing of concourses/queuing areas/etc is not based on typical flows/queue sizes, instead based on peak periods. There will be well understood modelling which shows the max queue length, with sizes determined based on that, but 90% of the day wont get anywhere near it. That's one of the reasons why security queues always have the movable barriers to reduce walking distance when quiet. In any case, the new scanners will be much quicker than currently, so even if the queue length gets bigger, the time will likely be far shorter.

come in via the monorail from international station as it meets the queue from the lifts exits into departures upstairs and bypasses the queue downstairs

There is an open question here. The planning application showed a wall being built where the air-rail link currently exists, with nothing showing the air-rail link itself. I presume that an application was submitted for its 'end state' - i.e. once the people mover is installed in a few years time the air-rail link will be demolished and the wall put up - but in the meantime effectively the work will be semi-complete. It would, definitely, be a massive own goal if the air-rail link is removed and i presume that it definitely wont be what happens.

I'm sure it's been discussed previously, but surely there has to be an alternative to lifts for fire regulations. I was taught from a young age, never to use lifts in a fire evacuation and I believe that their operation is stopped under such circumstances.

Yes, as per previous my post, there are stairs/fire cores either side of the lift lobby. Whether they will be accessible/signed/open during normal operation is anyone's guess - i expect the doors will be unlocked and used by a handful of people, with an option to send people that way if for whatever reason it gets exceptionally busy.

Separately, modern lift design doesn't have the same problems during fires. Many buildings have lifts which can be used during fires (my office included). I'd imagine evacuation plans would suggest everyone uses the stairs, though.

Think again about the lifts, they on demand by pressing the button like all lifts and they seem to work independently so if you dont press the button the lift dont come, I have seen people only press the middle 2 lifts buttons so only those lift operate and they all pile into them, another pain is the straddlers into the lift, you could have a lift ready to go and a pax appears 15m away then another a few meters behind then a numpty will hold the lift for them instead of letting the doors close and let them get the next one........there are 4 lifts (if they all operate) so use them all.

Is this the case at BHX currently? I havent been in for a while, are they already in operation? Or are you referring to the temporary ones?

Either way, as per my previous comments - assuming all 4 lifts are in continuous operation - lifts will be arriving and departing very regularly, every 10-15 seconds or so. Most new lift systems dont have call buttons - its probably completely unnecessary when there is only one destination. I could imagine that the lifts themselves would only have a door hold open button for people getting in, but there would be no physical button to press on either floor to 'call' a lift in the traditional way - because there is probably already one there.

I think what im really saying is that these lifts arent lifts which have to take 3 different families to 3 different floors of a 20 floor hotel, and as a result will operate much more efficiently.

The proof will, however, be in the pudding (and im entirely prepared to eat my hat if the whole thing proves a disaster once open).

 

[Deleted member 8277]

Sizing of concourses/queuing areas/etc is not based on typical flows/queue sizes, instead based on peak periods. There will be well understood modelling which shows the max queue length, with sizes determined based on that, but 90% of the day wont get anywhere near it. That's one of the reasons why security queues always have the movable barriers to reduce walking distance when quiet. In any case, the new scanners will be much quicker than currently, so even if the queue length gets bigger, the time will likely be far shorter.

There is an open question here. The planning application showed a wall being built where the air-rail link currently exists, with nothing showing the air-rail link itself. I presume that an application was submitted for its 'end state' - i.e. once the people mover is installed in a few years time the air-rail link will be demolished and the wall put up - but in the meantime effectively the work will be semi-complete. It would, definitely, be a massive own goal if the air-rail link is removed and i presume that it definitely wont be what happens.

Yes, as per previous my post, there are stairs/fire cores either side of the lift lobby. Whether they will be accessible/signed/open during normal operation is anyone's guess - i expect the doors will be unlocked and used by a handful of people, with an option to send people that way if for whatever reason it gets exceptionally busy.

Separately, modern lift design doesn't have the same problems during fires. Many buildings have lifts which can be used during fires (my office included). I'd imagine evacuation plans would suggest everyone uses the stairs, though.

Is this the case at BHX currently? I havent been in for a while, are they already in operation? Or are you referring to the temporary ones?

Either way, as per my previous comments - assuming all 4 lifts are in continuous operation - lifts will be arriving and departing very regularly, every 10-15 seconds or so. Most new lift systems dont have call buttons - its probably completely unnecessary when there is only one destination. I could imagine that the lifts themselves would only have a door hold open button for people getting in, but there would be no physical button to press on either floor to 'call' a lift in the traditional way - because there is probably already one there.

I think what im really saying is that these lifts arent lifts which have to take 3 different families to 3 different floors of a 20 floor hotel, and as a result will operate much more efficiently.

The proof will, however, be in the pudding (and im entirely prepared to eat my hat if the whole thing proves a disaster once open).

I regularly use these 4 lifts (if all are in use!) to/from staff gate (temp ones have gone). They are on demand and called when you press the button for each lift. Dont press the button and the lift wont come unless someone the other end uses it, they certainly dont arr/dep every 15-20 seconds. I have seen lemmings errr passengers only press the middle lift buttons just after they have left and frustrated staff go to the end lifts either side to call them.
Currently the only way to access the rail link is via the lifts (the layout for the future doesn't seem to show any difference), so at peak times with queues for departures both downstairs to the lifts and upstairs to departures you will have to wait in the same queue, upstairs at busy periods I have seen queues from the rail link that funnels to the small area between the lifts and departures area where the passengers dont realize they are in a queue for departures and just wait following the queue until they see the lift and realize they didn't have to queue.

 

[MB1]

I regularly use these 4 lifts (if all are in use!) to/from staff gate (temp ones have gone). They are on demand and called when you press the button for each lift. Dont press the button and the lift wont come unless someone the other end uses it, they certainly dont arr/dep every 15-20 seconds. I have seen lemmings errr passengers only press the middle lift buttons just after they have left and frustrated staff go to the end lifts either side to call them.

This seems a massive oversight. At most hotels that have a number of lifts you only need to press one call button and it will summon the next lift from all available. Hardly cutting edge technology!

Busier times in the terminal are getting nearer so the proof will be in the pudding!

 

[jfy1999]

There is an open question here. The planning application showed a wall being built where the air-rail link currently exists, with nothing showing the air-rail link itself. I presume that an application was submitted for its 'end state' - i.e. once the people mover is installed in a few years time the air-rail link will be demolished and the wall put up - but in the meantime effectively the work will be semi-complete. It would, definitely, be a massive own goal if the air-rail link is removed and i presume that it definitely wont be what happens.

If this rebuild doesn’t make it impractical for passengers to keep using the Air-rail link, then I would rather see it stay open. I have no doubt it will close at some point, but people don’t have to wait outdoors with the existing setup. In addition, the new people movers will have further to travel, so it’s likely people will be waiting longer for one, unless they somehow find a way to operate more than two vehicles at once.

 

[JF57]

This seems a massive oversight. At most hotels that have a number of lifts you only need to press one call button and it will summon the next lift from all available. Hardly cutting edge technology!

Busier times in the terminal are getting nearer so the proof will be in the pudding!

Certainly seems an error not to make all the call buttons summon the best available available lift. If someone pushes all call buttons with the current design then all lifts ending up on the same level together doesn't sound great.
However the lifts work or don't if there is no alternative for those who don't like lifts I will have great difficulty persuading my other half to use BHX.

 

[Nibbles]

Hmm, ok. I might go and take a walk through next time im at the station.

Of course, worth remembering that the work is not yet complete - far from it - so how it operates now is unlikely to be how it will operate on opening. I agree it would be a big own goal if they arent efficient. But i also reiterate my previous message - with 4 lifts travelling a total vertical distance of ~10m there is no reason why they shouldnt been coming and going very very regularly. But we will see.

@JF57 as earlier, the plans previously had 2 stairwells either side of the lift lobby. I highly doubt they will be inaccessible during normal operation, even if they arent 'well' signposted. If they turn out to be, a quick email to the airport pointing out that travellers with specific needs - a fear of lifts - have no alternative will probably work wonders.

 

[rollo]

Having read the recent comments re the lifts and the people mover link I thought I'd put my two penneth in.

According to Wikipedia and @hs2.org.uk the automated people mover will open in 2029 with connections evey 3 minutes between BHX and the interchange total journey time 6 minutes over 2.2km, mostly single track but double track in part. Total passenger capacity 2,100/hr each way. Track elevated to 6m -12m so presumably arrives at 1st floor level if so check in is downstairs?


Lifts :

I personally think the choice of using lifts as the primary method is poor and much less efficient and less desirable than an escalator which is just step on/off with hand luggage.
If a escalator breaks it simply becomes a staircase if a lift breaks trapped passengers miss flights or in the case recently at BHX the lift broke with Qatar crew in it with the flight delayed 3hrs I believe, additionally more people than you may think will not go in a lift at any price. Fire regulations state their must be a staircase nearby and I hope it is freely available for anyone who prefers to use and not just an emergency exit

The airport obviously has come to the conclusion that lifts will suffice rather than the extra expense of providing an escalator but given my experiences on cruise ships of banks of lifts in particular I fear the great British public public will find a way of bu***ring it up.

I've noted some of the issues raised particularly by big vern and hope issues raised are teething problems while construction is continuing, we are next using the airport in mid June when the new scanners etc should in place so we will be giving it a go and see how it goes.

P.S. please can we one day have the escalator into the immigration hall working if it hasn't rusted up its not great or particularly safe lumping hand luggage downstairs. I know its about potential overcrowding but turning something off is not really the solution

 

[Nibbles]

Remember that the people mover will terminate near the Jet2 desks at the other end of the terminal, so access wont be fantastic. Im not sure whether the existing air-rail link will remain or not.

As for the comments on the lift - and im not a lift happy-clapper, and very happy to be proved wrong - i disagree that these are a backward step. Lifts dont just break down, especially new ones. I dont know where the Qatar crew were stuck, but im willing to bet its not in a lift that has only been in situ for 5 minutes, instead more like an aged lift in an old part of the airport.

In any case, the whole ambition with the development is about opening up space. Escalators use up a huge amount of space, and restrict open space/light permeation across the floors. Note previously there were only 2 banks of escalators, both in the most awkward location. That space is now completely clear, replaced with high capacity and (hopefully) high specification lifts which will distribute as many if not more passengers than previously.

I remind you all that these lifts are not comparable to the local shopping centre/hotel/cruise ship - which have many floors and can (and do) stop at them all. There is only ONE destination. There wont (i expect) be buttons inside, and there is no need for buttons outside either. Comparing with lifts that you've experienced elsewhere is, i suggest, comparing apples with oranges.

To avoid some of the other questions that keep popping up, see below snapshot from the planning application. Its actually 6 lifts, with one existing staircase and a separate high capacity staircase installed in the vicinity of the Emirates checkin area.

 

[TM3]

On the plan there looks to be 6 elevators and 2 stairwells in total, with 2 elevators and one stairwell close to the people mover.

The lifts will not only be needed for passengers moving up to the departupect tre hall from check in but also those moving down from the people mover to check in.

I think removing this people mover would be a mistake and I can see demand for connections at both ends of he terminal.

 

[Birmingham Aviation]

The airport its self outside departure lounge by the bus stops is a disaster and an opposite to X-Files.

 

[rollo]

Thanks for reply particularly the attachment which is informative. I know I moaned on about the lifts v escalators but I just feel the latter are more efficient and easier for most people and I know the new lifts are not comparable to multi floor lifts but don't underestimate the stupidity of some of the public. Maybe its just my personal preference.

To be clear I want BHX to succeed having used the airport countless times for over 50 years for business and leisure and fully understand the the airport will have thought through in detail the scheme so hopefully it will all be fine.

Regarding the existing monorail it's due to be decommissioned and demolished after the new one is operational.

The road/rail links for BHXare probably the best in the country and I want an airport to match

 

[Nibbles]

I dont disagree. Escalators would definitely be the best solution, but they require space - space which we dont have here.

I think you are right re air-rail link - though i am still slightly concerned that its not shown in those plans (nor referenced in the supporting documentation). I presume that the plan shows what it'll all look like once the air-rail link is removed. Of course, many would argue that the APM terminating adjacent the southern terminal, a long walk from the bulk of the check-in desks and security, is not a great solution. Im hoping the airport have a plan in mind for that...

 

[TM3]

If the city and HS2 connections are going to be at the Jet2 check-in counter are maybe this is not going to be the best place for Jet2 going forward as I would expect them to cater to passengers mainly using the long stay car parks both on and off the airport.

Also this would leave Emirates and the A* carriers with check in desks at some of the poorest locations in the airport.

 

[Jon Dempsey]

Top tip, if there are big queues downstairs and you are already online checked in come in via the monorail from international station as it meets the queue from the lifts exits into departures upstairs and bypasses the queue downstairs. The pax from the monorail who need to check have to use the lift to go down to check in area, now this is a problem as these passengers don't realize this and if there is a queue for departures it goes back into the monorail area and they wait unwittingly in the queue for departures until they realize they should walk past to the lift and down to check in.

When I travelled out on the Sunday, the four lift lanes were being controlled by a staff member opening and closing a "sheep-dip fence" as I call them.
As I needed to check baggage in, I had to push pash past 4 lanes of people rushing to get to departures - I'm sure this will get sorted once the new security area is up and running and the mamagement start to de-snag it.

 

[Nibbles]

If the city and HS2 connections are going to be at the Jet2 check-in counter are maybe this is not going to be the best place for Jet2 going forward as I would expect them to cater to passengers mainly using the long stay car parks both on and off the airport.

Also this would leave Emirates and the A* carriers with check in desks at some of the poorest locations in the airport.

Yes, i agree. I dont know if there is scope to retain the Air-Rail Link - the connection to the train station will pop out adjacent to the escalators next to the existing air-rail link, so it may be possible to have both with a sign saying 'Emirates/Qatar/etc. this way' - but then the journey times go up and nobody wins.

All will become clear in a few years, anyway!

 

[Deleted member 8277]

I dont know where the Qatar crew were stuck, but im willing to bet its not in a lift that has only been in situ for 5 minutes, instead more like an aged lift in an old part of the airport.


I remind you all that these lifts are not comparable to the local shopping centre/hotel/cruise ship - which have many floors and can (and do) stop at them all. There is only ONE destination. There wont (i expect) be buttons inside, and there is no need for buttons outside either. Comparing with lifts that you've experienced elsewhere is, i suggest, comparing apples with oranges.

Qatar crew were stuck in one of the 2 temporary lifts installed along with the scaffold stairs when the escalators were taken out prior to the new lifts being operational.
By the way the 4 new high capacity lifts have buttons inside, press to get to the ground floor and floor 1 along with a close door and open door buttons. They are exactly like other lifts but only go 1 floor up.

 

[Nibbles]

Thanks. Stuck in a temporary lift is a very different thing to being stuck in a brand new permanent lift.

Noted re buttons. Hopefully they'll be able to run in a near autonomous mode.

In any case, we will see what its like on a busy day in the summer (im there 3 times in June!)

 

[IanFarquharson]

All lifts working ok today

 

[Kevin Farnell]

Noted re buttons. Hopefully they'll be able to run in a near autonomous mode.

My guess is that like most electronically controlled devices these days, the operation of the lifts via the buttons will be programmable. I suspect that they are currently being used in a 'basic' mode and will be optimised as more data is gained on their usage.