HS2 losers -Aberdeen, Bristol, Cardiff, Leeds and....

[TheLocalYokel]

Adding to this discussion a view from the other side - I am largely in favor of HS2. Whilst yes I am from near B'ham (B'ham Int is a 15 minute drive from me) current journey times to London are quick enough and in the coming years I am likely to relocate South for work anyway. So why am I in favor of HS2?

Firstly it is an investment being made in infrastructure most of which is outside of London & the SE. New or expanded stations will be built in Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, Crewe and in the East Midlands. In Birmingham alone there are now plans for a new development zone around the HS2 station near the airport. Similar projects will likely occur around the other HS2 stations. Yes this money could be spent on other projects in the 'regions', but given governments record of doing that its amazing they've even committed to this.

Whilst its true there is generally enough capacity and speed on intercity trains, HS2 won't only improve those services. Looking at the Birmingham to London section, once phase 1 opens I believe the plan is to switch the majority of Virgin Trains services over to HS2 (Virgin will have to bid for rights to operate). This will open up new 'slots' on the WCML for new services into London and Birmingham allowing for more trains for commuters into those cities. The same will happen for Northern cities when the second phase opens. Additionally in Birmingham's case, as HS2 will be served by a new station, New Street Station will have more capacity for passengers and new rail services. Virgin's rolling stock will also be incompatible with HS2 so may be relocated to other parts of the UK rail network to replace older trains.

The only part of HS2 which bugs me is the cost. Not exactly how much it will cost, but how much more expensive it will be to build than European counterparts. Why the difference? The cost to build such a length of line in Germany (£34m/mi) would be just over £11bn. HS2 is costing around £400m/mi, and if that was the standard globally for high speed rail so be it, but other countries have shown it can be done for less.

Regardless of whether or not HS2 is built, investment should nevertheless be made in the SW and the regions to better interconnect them. Going at it by themselves, Newquay, Exeter, Plymouth and the rest of the SW will struggle. But better connect them and they'd stand a decent chance.

Sorry if that was a bit long - a few points to discuss.

We in the South West can only look with envious eyes at what is happening in the London/South East area, and in the Midlands and North with the HS2 proposal.

The Government Region of the South West is a huge area running from Gloucestershire eastwards to Wiltshire, Bristol, Somerset, Dorset (including Bournemouth and Poole), Devon and Cornwall/Isles of Scilly, with a population in excess of 5 million and, like much of the rest of the country, growing at a fast pace. In fact, northern Gloucestershire is as close to the Scottish border as it is to the far south-west of Cornwall.

Yet we have no standard bearer in the way that central government looks to the South East and increasingly to the 'Northern Power' House'. We have no separate government like Scotland and Wales who also have dedicated secretaries of state in the Westminster government looking out for them.

Our railways are a microcosm of what we haven't got. Not only does the South East and much of the North have electrified railways it will, if plans come to fruition, have a high speed railway as well as the existing electric railways.

The huge area which is the official South West will only see an electrified railway between Swindon and the eastern end of the Severn Tunnel on the main line from London to South Wales. The government has cancelled the proposed electrification of the Bristol main line west of Chippenham through Bath to save about £100 million (petty cash for the HS2 project) having already spent more than that on enabling work for electrification on the section that will no longer be electrified.

Instead, the new bi-mode trains will run on diesel power through Bath and Bristol. Hammond the arrogant chancellor's only retort is to tell Bristol 'to get over it' which he's done on two separate occasions. Grayling the transport secretary visited BRS earlier this year and said publicly that he hadn't realised how busy the airport was. These statements show that central government neither knows much about our area nor cares.

There are no plans now to electrify any part of the South West's railways and the scheme was only ever going as far as Bristol anyway - until even that bit was axed.

 

[Jerry]

In a way the South West and other regions of England are probably suffering because of a lack of devolution to the regions in England. If you look at Wales transport infrastructure is now in Welsh hands and yes not everything is moving quickly but eventually the rail lines like the Valley Lines will get electrified, there will be a Metro and maybe even the M4 will get diverted. So although Wales is behind compared to places like Manchester which has tram systems it has a chance of getting things like that in place in 10 or 20 years time whereas areas like the South West don't.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

This is the ridiculous quasi federal system we have in the UK with three of the constituent countries having their own 'state' government (in US terms) with the fourth (and by far the largest) governed from the centre by the 'federal' government.

That though is not really a subject for this thread but might form an interesting debate in its own thread in the future.

 

[Dobbo]

On the cost its largely related to three points:

1. The UK's loading gauge (size of trains) is smaller than European counterparts. This means that a standard high speed line built in the UK needs new build lines to go right into the city centre. This is obviously expensive and adds to the cost which otherwise would not have to be incurred in European counterparts.
2. In the UK we have decided to build new stations at Euston, Old Oak Common, Birmingham (x2), Leeds, Manchester (x2), and Toton. Most European lines do not require new stations.
3. The UK is an expensive place to build because it is densely populated. This adds to the expense - just look at the amount of tunnel required on Phase 1 due to objections.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Now if the UK had gone with Brunel's broad gauge.....

Could do with a Brunel these days. He was a tyrant but he got most things done.

 

[rollo]

Now if the UK had gone with Brunel's broad gauge.....

Could do with a Brunel these days. He was a tyrant but he got most things done.

And a Watt, Stevenson, Boulton, Telford, Sir Christopher Wren etc and maybe a Churchill to run the show with a bit of Shakespeare thrown in.

 

[Silvercity]

We in the South West can only look with envious eyes at what is happening in the London/South East area, and in the Midlands and North with the HS2 proposal.

The Government Region of the South West is a huge area running from Gloucestershire eastwards to Wiltshire, Bristol, Somerset, Dorset (including Bournemouth and Poole), Devon and Cornwall/Isles of Scilly, with a population in excess of 5 million and, like much of the rest of the country, growing at a fast pace. In fact, northern Gloucestershire is as close to the Scottish border as it is to the far south-west of Cornwall.

Yet we have no standard bearer in the way that central government looks to the South East and increasingly to the 'Northern Power' House'. We have no separate government like Scotland and Wales who also have dedicated secretaries of state in the Westminster government looking out for them.

Our railways are a microcosm of what we haven't got. Not only does the South East and much of the North have electrified railways it will, if plans come to fruition, have a high speed railway as well as the existing electric railways.

The huge area which is the official South West will only see an electrified railway between Swindon and the eastern end of the Severn Tunnel on the main line from London to South Wales. The government has cancelled the proposed electrification of the Bristol main line west of Chippenham through Bath to save about £100 million (petty cash for the HS2 project) having already spent more than that on enabling work for electrification on the section that will no longer be electrified.

Instead, the new bi-mode trains will run on diesel power through Bath and Bristol. Hammond the arrogant chancellor's only retort is to tell Bristol 'to get over it' which he's done on two separate occasions. Grayling the transport secretary visited BRS earlier this year and said publicly that he hadn't realised how busy the airport was. These statements show that central government neither knows much about our area nor cares.

There are no plans now to electrify any part of the South West's railways and the scheme was only ever going as far as Bristol anyway - until even that bit was axed.

The Northern Powerhouse had gone very quiet, I think George Osborne who now writes in the Evening Standard, plus the two new Metropolitan mayors in the Northwest, have given the thing a kick again, otherwise I think the government would have let the Northern Powerhouse idea quietly die.

 

[Aviador]

Here we go again. The government is set to announce its canceling HS2 between Birmingham and Manchester.

Rishi Sunak pushes to axe northern HS2 rail line ahead of Tory conference

Sources say the PM wants to scrap the project’s section o Manchester before the party’s annual gathering in the city next weekend

www.theguardian.com

#HS2

 

[Ashley.S.]

Seems a shame but if costs have skyrocketed as they claim, is it right that taxpayers should subsidise it all?

 

[KARFA]

cost keep increasing partly because they keep changing their minds and trying to redesign various parts in order to "save money", and because far too much of the line has been put in tunnels as a fop to the various NIMBY communities along the route.

 

[Aviador]

Cancel the lot and divide what money there is into the regions for local transport infrastructure.

 

[KARFA]

the problem is that it is needed. we need extra capacity on rail as the west coast line will soon have little left to expand. this is not about "getting people to Birmingham a little faster".

 

[Brum X]

Hs2 needs to be built in full, so stop talking and get building.

It is also worth noting that the expansion of Birmingham's metro line to the Eastside of the city is being delayeds becouse of Hs2 as the track will go under Curzon street station, so the longer this keeps getting delayed, there will be no opening date for the extension to Digbeth as they can't operate a tram underneath a construction site.

 

[Silvercity]

Here we go again. The government is set to announce its canceling HS2 between Birmingham and Manchester.

Rishi Sunak pushes to axe northern HS2 rail line ahead of Tory conference

Sources say the PM wants to scrap the project’s section o Manchester before the party’s annual gathering in the city next weekend

www.theguardian.com

#HS2

The project gets chopped at chopped. I dont know how Liverpool will be affected by it, if it ever gets here. However, travelling across the North is abysmal East to West, coast to coast, its dreadful. Id like to see something happen with this. Having said that Northern Rail and Trans Peninne Express offer a very poor service as operators.

Cancel the lot and divide what money there is into the regions for local transport infrastructure.

I read in the I newspaper this weekend, that what the majority of people would benefit ar more from is a big investment in bringing buses back which have been chopped merciless since the Thatcher period. Only London escapes it.

 

[Sherburnflyer92]

What do people expect?

Both Rishi and Hunt are both WEF stooges who don’t work for the people of the UK.

Both are despised by their own party members, by their own MP’s and even more so by the public. So much so that we had to have a coup on Lizz truss, which includes falsely causing a run on the markets, to put these people in charge. A complete coup by the least 2 trustworthy people in the U.K. WEF puppets and enemies of the U.K. population if you ask me.

They may as well now cancel the whole lot. Waste of money now. No benefit what’s so ever.

Typical short sighted politicians. The country also wastes 15 plus years having studies and studies and meetings about meetings about meetings. Instead of cracking on. No wonder costs spiral when you’re using 2008 costs and not 2023.

There is so much this country could have and benefit from if we had head strong, visionary politicians. Who knew the benefits of long term 10/15 year plus projects. The economic benefits would be enormous. But we can’t have them. Hunt/sunak have been told by those in charge not to bring any economic prosperity to the UK.

 

[gulftraveller]

That is all well and good but somebody has to pay for it. Do you raise taxes? Divert money from other services? The mistake here is not cancelling the Birmingham to Manchester line but having started the project in the first place. We will now be left with a service which does no more than knock ten minutes off a passenger’s journey from Birmingham to Old Oak Common, wherever that is.

In the UK everybody, rightly, wants the best services but people are not willing to pay for them and governments find it too difficult to address the issue by raising taxes.

 

[Silvercity]

But there is a huge disparity of what is spent on public transport in London compared with everywhere else. That can not be right.

 

[Sherburnflyer92]

We managed to find the money to a fund a respond to a fake pandemic we didn’t need to do.

We’ve managed to find the money to fund the Tory’s mates through corruption at another level.

We manage to find the money to fund Ukraine and his corrupt regime and cocaine addiction whilst we suffer.

We manage to find the money to put up ILLEGAL immigrants in hotels and pay for their lavish lifestyle when they are not welcome on the U.K.

We are someone managing to find the money for “net zero” for a “climate crisis” which doesn’t exist.

So maybe some priorities. Stop funding Ukraine, stop funding Illegal immigration, stop giving aid to China and India they can look after themselves, cancel every single net zero BS scheme going. Re write the debt to be payed longer term like WW2 debt from Covid. Pull out of WHO.

And take loans. Speculate to accumulate.

 

[Jerry]

We manage to find the money to put up ILLEGAL immigrants in hotels

If they're in government funded hotels then they're not illegal as they're in the asylum system and no it's not illegal to cross the channel by a dinghy.

Stop funding Ukraine

The funding for Ukraine so far is around £5 billion, so not that much and definitely won't pay for a high speed rail network in England estimated to cost what £100 billion?
A high speed rail network like this wouldn't paid out of the daily budget, it would be something that would be paid over the longer term and added to the national debt and i expect the bean counters don't want to add to that debt.

 

[Aviador]

Irrespective of where the money is coming from its costing far too much. The length of time it takes the UK to do anything is probably partly to blame as we've been banging on about HS2 for probably 20 years now, it's really no wonder costs have increased so much. It's a UK phenomenon. We just talk about doing things everywhere else gets on and does it.