Route Development & Rumours

[A330]

It's been interesting reading your posts about a potential Singapore/Cathay to BHX. I don't have much to add to the debate - sorry. I did want to make a couple of points which are worth bearing in mind when discussing this particular subject. These are not to be taken as criticisms, more of a reminder, as often we can post our views from a specific angle and not consider the bigger picture. It is in part the very reason we come to this forum to learn more about one of our many interests.

Would you seriously rather take 18 hours to get to Hong Kong on Emirates than 12 and a half on Cathay?

For economy passengers especially, never forget the cost will always be a massive driver in their decision. It's the first thing people will notice on a search engine such as Skyscanner. For instance, many people would use Qatar before Emirates to fly to Dubai as they often came up cheaper. Not sure if this is the case today, as this traffic may have changed after the blockade.

Another example would be at Heathrow, where on most days there could be up to 7 non-stop flights to Hong Kong. You would be amazed to learn the number of people that are connecting via hubs (adding hours to their journey) with their final destination being HKG. Why didn't fly direct on CX or BA? Price.

My second point is all airlines are different when it comes to route development. As gulftraveller has mentioned, both CX/SQ are very conservative airlines when adding new destinations. I'm a massive BHX fan and would love to see both start services to our airport, however when you consider Barcelona (the seventh busiest airport in Europe at the time of posting) will only resume this summer than I can't see BHX being added in the short term.

I remember in 2000 (when we all survived millennium bug and life would go on) Emirates announced a daily service to Birmingham. At the time they were well established at Heathrow/Gatwick and at least daily to Manchester. The business case was there to add Birmingham and I remember reading a quote they wanted to take some pressure off their LHR services. We will see both CX/SQ add Birmingham when they reach a similar level, but not for at least a couple of years.

It's fantastic to see that Saudia launched BHX when they could have expanded their existing UK offering. After a busy summer I'm sure the management at SV are pleased with their decision to do so. In my opinion, Cathay/Singapore are not airlines that will spread themselves thin as we saw with Saudia.

Just want to finish by saying I would love to be proven wrong though!

 

[TM3]

Quite a few of the A350x we get at MAN depending on season are almost 400 seats and some of the A380 are 515 seats.
I used to work in Business travel and yes many prefered a hotel stop DXB or the like in Middle East. The main requirements were costs and were they ready to go a meeting on arrival of which the answer was of course not unless flying first class. and the other problem was corporatate deals on which airline they could fly with. for many reasons.
Personally I hate any flight over 10 hours and would prefer a break and cannot think of anything worse than 12hours plus in economy.

I also used to work in business travel and I used to travel business myself as a corporate with an number of guys in the same situation. I don't recognise this as typical behaviour.

In my experience most guys doing business travel want to spend the minimum time they can away from home for family reasons.

Typically their employer has set some arbitrary circumstances under which they will pay for travel in business class, such as more than 3,000 miles or 6 hours.

Regardless of what explaination they give for it the employee wants to fly business class for a heap of reasons including but not limited to status (both with the airline and for reasons of their own ego, or thinking not booking business class erodes their claim to booking business class in the future), and comfort.

As they are not spending their own money they are, to put it diplomatically, less price sensitive. By this I mean they will book the best flight they can get away with but may also favour a specific airline if they have or want status their or are saving for an award flight, etc.

If they have the spending power of their employer behind them to buy a business class ticket they are prepared to travel to a different airport to get the connection they want, partially because their employer if paying for it.

I don't get the explanation you are giving for a flight to Singapore or Hong Kong. Why would anyone want to overnight in Dubai then sit on a 7 hour flight to Singapore or Hong Kong and then go an attend a meeting, This has got to be 14 or so hours of travelling when you include getting to the airport, checking in (2 hrs before) and then travelling directly to the office from the airport when they get there.

Whether you fly business class with a lie flat bed or economy surely you would be better flying direct the nday before and getting a hotel in Singapore or Hong Kong.

It's been interesting reading your posts about a potential Singapore/Cathay to BHX. I don't have much to add to the debate - sorry. I did want to make a couple of points which are worth bearing in mind when discussing this particular subject. These are not to be taken as criticisms, more of a reminder, as often we can post our views from a specific angle and not consider the bigger picture. It is in part the very reason we come to this forum to learn more about one of our many interests.



For economy passengers especially, never forget the cost will always be a massive driver in their decision. It's the first thing people will notice on a search engine such as Skyscanner. For instance, many people would use Qatar before Emirates to fly to Dubai as they often came up cheaper. Not sure if this is the case today, as this traffic may have changed after the blockade.

Another example would be at Heathrow, where on most days there could be up to 7 non-stop flights to Hong Kong. You would be amazed to learn the number of people that are connecting via hubs (adding hours to their journey) with their final destination being HKG. Why didn't fly direct on CX or BA? Price.

My second point is all airlines are different when it comes to route development. As gulftraveller has mentioned, both CX/SQ are very conservative airlines when adding new destinations. I'm a massive BHX fan and would love to see both start services to our airport, however when you consider Barcelona (the seventh busiest airport in Europe at the time of posting) will only resume this summer than I can't see BHX being added in the short term.

I remember in 2000 (when we all survived millennium bug and life would go on) Emirates announced a daily service to Birmingham. At the time they were well established at Heathrow/Gatwick and at least daily to Manchester. The business case was there to add Birmingham and I remember reading a quote they wanted to take some pressure off their LHR services. We will see both CX/SQ add Birmingham when they reach a similar level, but not for at least a couple of years.

It's fantastic to see that Saudia launched BHX when they could have expanded their existing UK offering. After a busy summer I'm sure the management at SV are pleased with their decision to do so. In my opinion, Cathay/Singapore are not airlines that will spread themselves thin as we saw with Saudia.

Just want to finish by saying I would love to be proven wrong though!

Interesting read and I totally get your point over price but the question I was asking specifically is if you were presented a flight to Singapore or Hong Kong direct for the same price as one via a gulf carrier, which would you choose? Also does the airline make a difference, are the some carriers you regard as more aspirational to travel with than others?

 

[Timberwolf]

The 777 is becoming a bit aged now, A350X is virtually same seating as 777 but I m not sure BHX can take an A350X on a regular basis same as the 777X will be a problem if it ever gets through the testing stage. The A350 is much quieter than the 777 and as I have not flown an A350 I can`t comment but believe so much more comfortable.
The ME3 would still pick a large percentage as a lot of people don`t like a long non stop or want a break on route as both EK and QTR and THY have shown.

They will certainly use the 779X into BHX.As it will be highest capacity airliner available for EK.

Even then, it won't get near the 2 class A380 capacity with 615 seats they operate regulary full into BHX currently.

So may go 3 daily to make up the difference.Few years off though yet.

Personally I hate any flight over 10 hours and would prefer a break and cannot think of anything worse than 12hours plus in economy.

Same here, love planes but detest flts over 3hrs .Can never sleep and at 6ft 2" in economy LH flts, kills my neck and back.

Just about able to afford premium economy to Alaska this summer, but will have to be a one off.

 

[TM3]

They will certainly use the 779X into BHX.As it will be highest capacity airliner available for EK.

Even then, it won't get near the 2 class A380 capacity with 615 seats they operate regulary full into BHX currently.

So may go 3 daily to make up the difference.Few years off though yet.

Same here, love planes but detest flts over 3hrs .Can never sleep and at 6ft 2" in economy LH flts, kills my neck and back.

Just about able to afford premium economy to Alaska this summer, but will have to be a one off.

Thanks for responding and I get what you are saying, have you tried booking an exit row seat?

In respect of the specific example would you prefer a direct 12 hr flight to Singapore or Hong Kong or 2 7 hour flights with a short break in Dubai?

I'd also put in the mix Cathay and Singapore Airlines both offer premium economy whilst Emirates do not, would that effect your decision on which to fly?

 

[mullion]

Proably would choose Qatar but if I could afford the difference would take the First class ex MAN on SQ but as I really don`t want a 12 hr non stop and my wife would struggle with her back.

 

[Timberwolf]

Thanks for responding and I get what you are saying, have you tried booking an exit row seat?

In respect of the specific example would you prefer a direct 12 hr flight to Singapore or Hong Kong or 2 7 hour flights with a short break in Dubai?

I'd also put in the mix Cathay and Singapore Airlines both offer premium economy whilst Emirates do not, would that effect your decision on which to

We did Australia with a one stop via Hong Kong, our CX flt from LGW got delayed and we almost missed our connecting flt.

We have said never ever again If we go to NZ which we are pondering.Next time we will do a hotel stop over both ways .Over 24 hrs without sleep killed us.

We have flown Virgin once to Antigua.They offer Virgin Delight economy seats. These are basic economy seats but with much better seat pitch than economy at only £30 extra.

We generally can't afford premium economy, but we are off to Alaska this summer and we have to use BA ,stipulated by the cruise company.They don't do the same as Virgin, so we are going premium economy just this once.Costing us an additional £1200 for the 4 flts we have during the holiday.

 

[DarloPlaneBoy]

My Parents are looking at going on Cruise around New Zealand in 2026 in fact they have it booked. But the Flights they are looking at are from either LGW or LHR to either Qatar then 17 hours to Sydney where there cruise leaves or to China then to Sydney. Now I haven't asked why they haven't considered Birmingham but I could take a few guesses 1 Price they got the Cruise reduced normal price for 1 adult and reduced for the 2nd. The Flights from Birmingham as flying from home is more expensive would probably more. 2 They don't fancy the long flight from the Middle East to Australia so China/Japan/Singapore probably viable meaning LHR/LGW have more choice and 3 they have more choice on flight times rather than landing into Sydney to early to check in to their hotel or to late. Considering there going to be tired and 4 the US Could be considered yet Via SFO or LAX and possibly Canada which BHX doesn't have the options. So If someone wants to fly to Australia the South is considered more likely. If Birmingham could land SQ or CX or someone else then depending on there connections it could be viable for people to choose it from Birmingham. But it is probably cheaper to get the Coach from Brum to LHR/LGW and fly from them to the ME/Asia than to fly from Brum directly.

 

[Karl C]

Purely anecdotal, but during covid I flew Doha to San Francisco non stop at 15hrs 5 mins via the polar route. I would never choose this option again. It was far too long to be on a plane. Flying to Mauritius on Sunday and had both non stop and via Dubai options. Dubai won hands down and cost more than Air Mauritius.... and get to jet off from BHX

 

[rollo]

We also flew to Australia some years back with a three night stop over in Hong Kong out and three nights in Singapore on the return from LHR with Qantas, I would never consider that sort of distance without a layover. We looked at Emirates from BHX but the cost difference was horrendous and didn't particularly fancy Dubai as a stop over anyway

Done quite a few 7 - 10 hr transatlantic trips with no issues-all tourist class cheapskate that I am

Obviously if travelling on business there are different considerations and economy plus, business or 1st class are more likely options.

Interesting topic this.

 

[A330]

... the question I was asking specifically is if you were presented a flight to Singapore or Hong Kong direct for the same price as one via a gulf carrier, which would you choose? Also does the airline make a difference, are the some carriers you regard as more aspirational to travel with than others?

I would choose the direct option if the same price, it's a no brainier. For most economy passengers I would imagine the direct option would be selected when there's no price difference.

For business class passengers the loyalty programs may have an influence in the airline of choice rather than the shortest routing.

As for your last question my feeling is for premium passengers the airline of choice will matter due to extra costs and expecting a higher level of service.

 

[Timberwolf]

My Parents are looking at going on Cruise around New Zealand in 2026 in fact they have it booked. But the Flights they are looking at are from either LGW or LHR to either Qatar then 17 hours to Sydney where there cruise leaves or to China then to Sydney. Now I haven't asked why they haven't considered Birmingham but I could take a few guesses 1 Price they got the Cruise reduced normal price for 1 adult and reduced for the 2nd. The Flights from Birmingham as flying from home is more expensive would probably more. 2 They don't fancy the long flight from the Middle East to Australia so China/Japan/Singapore probably viable meaning LHR/LGW have more choice and 3 they have more choice on flight times rather than landing into Sydney to early to check in to their hotel or to late. Considering there going to be tired and 4 the US Could be considered yet Via SFO or LAX and possibly Canada which BHX doesn't have the options. So If someone wants to fly to Australia the South is considered more likely. If Birmingham could land SQ or CX or someone else then depending on there connections it could be viable for people to choose it from Birmingham. But it is probably cheaper to get the Coach from Brum to LHR/LGW and fly from them to the ME/Asia than to fly from Brum directly.

Certainly for us we didn't really have a choice of UK airports to Alaska.We have a cruise then inland stay with Princess Cruises.

The flights allocated to Vancouver to pick up the Cruise ship then from Anchorage to Seattle and back home were only covered from /to Heathrow.Airlines BA and Alaskan airlines with BA codeshare.

If we wanted to choose another UK airport they said if anything goes wrong, missed/ delay flt etc then its on us.

Knowle Travel who we booked with gave an example.A couple booked their own flts through BHX to get up to Vancouver.Their flts got heavily delayed.They arrived so late they were likely to miss the cruise ship departure.As they hadn't booked the Cruise line specified flts, nobody was there to meet them from the company.

The cruise ship sailed without them and they were struggling to get their money back,as they hadn't taken the specified flts stipulated by Princess..ouch.

 

[DarloPlaneBoy]

Certainly for us we didn't really have a choice of UK airports to Alaska.We have a cruise then inland stay with Princess Cruises.

The flights allocated to Vancouver to pick up the Cruise ship then from Anchorage to Seattle and back home were only covered from /to Heathrow.Airlines BA and Alaskan airlines with BA codeshare.

If we wanted to choose another UK airport they said if anything goes wrong, missed/ delay flt etc then its on us.

Knowle Travel who we booked with gave an example.A couple booked their own flts through BHX to get up to Vancouver.Their flts got heavily delayed.They arrived so late they were likely to miss the cruise ship departure.As they hadn't booked the Cruise line specified flts, nobody was there to meet them from the company.

The cruise ship sailed without them and they were struggling to get their money back,as they hadn't taken the specified flts stipulated by Princess..ouch.

That's next on my Parents list in 2028

 

[TM3]

It's typical for travel agents, both those catering to business travel and leisure travel to negotiate a volume deal on a specific route. This is often one that airlines see as less likely to fill organically. It usually results in the agent earning a volume discount kickback on that route. Sometimes they also offer a discounted fare to the customer.

It's true that agents are very influential in terms of directing passengers to specific bookings that may be nothing like the best route they could have got otherwise. Difficult one to counter in terms of what could be done. I actually don't think that would change even if we got new connections.

 

[Timberwolf]

It's typical for travel agents, both those catering to business travel and leisure travel to negotiate a volume deal on a specific route. This is often one that airlines see as less likely to fill organically. It usually results in the agent earning a volume discount kickback on that route. Sometimes they also offer a discounted fare to the customer.

It's true that agents are very influential in terms of directing passengers to specific bookings that may be nothing like the best route they could have got otherwise. Difficult one to counter in terms of what could be done. I actually don't think that would change even if we got new connections.

It wasn't the travel agent. When we phoned Princess Cruises it was they that specified their policy on flt pick ups and hotels we would have to use on arrival in Vancouver and later Anchorage.
The Travel agent then just followed the policies set out by Princess.
We then enquired about picking our own flts back as the connection is tight.
The travel agent then said we could discuss going for an earlier flt but we likely wouldn't be covered if anythingvwent wrong.They suggested we discuss with Princess.

So we did, bang on..Princess said if we get earlier flts they wouldn't arrange a pick up and if anything went wrong it was on us.
The power of Cruise Lines huh !

 

[TM3]

OK, not quite the same, but I get some travel agents and tour companies do build their product around the (partially true) assumption that all UK passengers can be funnelled through a London connection.

Maybe I read it wrong but I was really commenting on the Australia/NZ itinerary with Qatar where there was no good reason as far as I can see why those passengers couldn't have left from BHX. Even if the first leg was different they could still have met the second leg at Doha.

 

[mullion]

It has always annoyed me when tour operators presume that passengers will tavel from London and not even think of offering MAN/BHX/NCL or whatever.

 

[Timberwolf]

It has always annoyed me when tour operators presume that passengers will tavel from London and not even think of offering MAN/BHX/NCL or whatever.

I was shocked the level of control of a big Cruise line has on everything.

 

[HPsauce]

It has always annoyed me when tour operators presume that passengers will tavel from London and not even think of offering MAN/BHX/NCL or whatever.

I can remember asking a Birmingham City Centre travel agent in the 1970's for information on flights to Brussels.
I was well aware that British Midland operated twice daily from BHX.
I was offered BA BHX to LHR, then connect to BA LHR- Brussels.
I asked why i wasn't offered British Midland direct. I was told that the agent had incentives to promote BA, so could not offer better alternatives!!.

It has always annoyed me when tour operators presume that passengers will tavel from London and not even think of offering MAN/BHX/NCL or whatever.

 

[mullion]

Timberwolf are you sure about 779X being able to use BHX as the length is longer than A340-600 which I thought cound not use BHX

 

[Kevin Farnell]

Timberwolf are you sure about 779X being able to use BHX as the length is longer than A340-600 which I thought cound not use BHX

It will all depend on the wheelbase of the aircraft (i.e. the distance from the nose gear to the main undercarriage and to some extent the distance between the main gear), not the actual length of the aircraft, If the B779X is incompatible with BHX and an airline wanted to run regular services (say daily), I have no doubt that BHX would do the work required to facilitate it (most likely by widening turns by adding fillets).