Flyforbeans part III

[vorloc]

Yes a real shame, things do seem to be improving slightly in the aviation market, some Uk operators reporting better than expected loads for the summer season.
With all the former 737 operators that have gone bankrupt in recent years ie Globespan, XL, Sterling and Futura I would have thought that there is a lot of equipment parked up and some favourable deals out there for possibly some 700 NG's, much better aircraft than the 300's they had originaly planned for.
Fingers crossed for some positive news!

 

[TheLocalYokel]

There is still a website called Flyforbeans.com that contains links to aviation related subjects.

It's certainly not the website that the proposed airline ran, so is this Flyforbeans anything to do with the other one? If not, didn't FFB register the name so how can someone else jump in? If FFB didn't secure the naming rights I am very surprised, having gone public with the idea three years ago.

My concern has always been finance, the perennial problem of most businesses, particularly start-ups and fledging airlines especially which are always a high risk venture.

Although FFB was said to have backers when it surfaced as an idea three years ago a lot of finance is needed to convince the CAA that an idea is sound.

The recession clearly hasn't helped with banks much more risk-averse than they used to be and other forms of financial backing either difficult to secure and/or expensive.

No announcement has been made that FFB has given up the ghost. If it hasn't it is a simple matter for its senior management to say so publicly.

 

[Em0866]

An update, the website is back. Where is went I do not know. Maybe they had server problems or something like what happened last time.
Despite this it does beg the question, when?
When you consider that they first announced this in the spring of 2007, over 3 years ago, it makes you think "will it ever happen?". Will it? ardon:

 

[TheLocalYokel]

I suppose we can still proceed on the basis that no news is good news.

I'm still puzzled though about another company or website having the same name as FFB.

 

[vorloc]

Seems to have gone again now???

 

[Em0866]

Makes me think it's an IT problem more than anything, but that's just a guess

 

[TheLocalYokel]

The one-page web site with little more than the usual promise to bring more news in the weeks and months ahead is still accessible.

About every three months I bring FFB to notice in the remote chance that someone has heard something one way or the other.

It's almost becoming a tradition.

 

[Aviador]

Just another paper airline it would seam. Cardiff has more chance of becoming a new Jet2 base than FFB happening.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Tim Leed, MD of FFB, and another leading light of the proposed airline no longer seem to post to the Welsh forum and haven't done so for many months.

I thought it was because things might be happening behind the scenes and they didn't want to make unguarded comments - not that someone like TL would.

It's well over three years since FFB was first put into the public domain but since then the recession has been blamed for its incredibly long gestation period.

There might still be a chance that it will see life but the longer things go on with no news most people will think the less likely it will happen.

Jet2 is often mentioned as a possible suitor for CWL. The airline certainly has many attributes that would make it a suitable partner but it might want some sunshine routes to balance the commercial plan and bmibaby has those, and I can't see CWL big enough for two 150-seat aircraft airlines to slug it out and make decent money on the same routes.

I may be wrong because baby certainly needs some competition as the inhouse loco. Many thought and still do think that Flybe has the right size of aircraft for many of the routes that CWL lacks.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

It's now over four years since Flyforbeans went public with its plans, still sadly awaiting birth.

A look back at what was said to be in the offing shows the euphoria of those days has evaporated with the changing situation.

At the time the world banking crisis that led to the recession that is still with us was for the future and CWL was booming with over 2 million passengers a year.

Will Flyforbeans ever see the light of day? I doubt that many would bet much money on the airline actually taking to the skies but, so far as is known, the project has not been abandoned.

[textarea]Flyforbeans has 12 destinations on its radar

Flyforbeans, the new budget airline to be based at Cardiff International Airport, plans to launch cut-price flights from the city to 12 European destinations.

The airline, which is based in the Vale of Glamorgan, predicts it will get nearly three quarters of a million passengers for the service which it hopes to launch out of Cardiff International this autumn.

Flyforbeans said it has already secured investment, including support from Welsh investors, for its low-cost European jet airline business.

If funding and Civil Aviation Authority permission is secured the airline will operate a fleet of Boeing 737-300 aircraft, each seating up to 148 passengers.

The airline is also considering a flotation on London’s AIM as one of several funding options.

The airline’s managing director, Tim Lee, said Flyforbeans is in the process of securing operational approval from the Civil Aviation Authority to run flights from Cardiff International Airport to Eastern European countries, Germany, Spain, Italy and France.

Mr Lee said, “This is a viable business model based just on Cardiff. However, we want to take the model beyond Cardiff. Our research has shown that our name is very strong from a franchise perspective into Europe.”

The new service would create 100 jobs, 75 of which will be flight crew.

“We are a European jet low-cost operator, which is a model which has been proven time and time again with the likes of Bmibaby,” said Mr Lee.

He said that the airline could not be compared with Air Wales, which collapsed last year after sustaining millions of pounds of losses. He said Air Wales’ routes were less frequent and mainly British Isles-based, and its planes had far smaller seating capacities.

He added, “The routes we will be providing will be those not currently served by Cardiff International Airport. Bmibaby – which has one of its UK bases in Cardiff – is a very large established player, led by some very capable people. We have no intention of kicking a hornet’s nest. There is more than enough room at Cardiff for both us to make a good living.”

However, Flyforbeans destinations will be in direct competition with several routes offered at Bristol International Airport, as well as other regional UK airports.

Currently around 500,000 passengers a year from South Wales fly out of Bristol, although not all to destinations that Flyforbeans will offer.

Mr Lee said the long-term model was to establish other bases at airports across Europe. He said the eventual aim at Cardiff was to increase the number of destinations from 12 to 20.

“In the first year from Cardiff we are anticipating passenger numbers of between 600,000 to 700,000,” he said.

“On some routes we will be operating more than one daily service. There are so many destinations currently not served by Cardiff and many places where we can fly. However, we don’t want to grow too quickly. We will... add more aircraft when the funding and market conditions are right.”

Mr Lee said Cardiff International was enthusiastic.

“From the airport managing director Jon Horne’s point of view we are very positive as we are pressing the right buttons in terms of the airport’s wish list of destinations,’’ he said.

Mr Lee said that on some routes up to 95% of passengers were expected to be business related, while on others the vast majority would be leisure.

And he said the aim was for a wider approach than other low- cost carriers, with greater numbers of passengers from abroad coming into Cardiff.

Although it is difficult to secure state funding for airlines, Flyforbeans is in discussions with the Assembly, he said. “Hopefully we will be seen as a new business which happens to be an airline, rather than an airline per se.”

However, he said the plan was not reliant on public sector funding.

Welsh aviation expert Martin Evans said, “It is early days for this new airline and there are many challenges ahead before it starts flying. However, potentially what it has to offer is a very good addition to the range of flights currently available at Cardiff International Airport.”[/textarea]
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... _page.html

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Will Flyforbeans ever see the light of day? I doubt that many would bet much money on the airline actually taking to the skies but, so far as is known, the project has not been abandoned.

It doesn't look as though we shall see FlyForBeans in the near future - no real surprise to anyone I would suggest.

Writing in another aviation forum Tim Lee's alter ego suggested that CWL's only real hope is a 'well funded start-up' but he says that at the moment the economic climate is 'beyond awful' for any sort of start-up.

 

[Aviador]

Will Flyforbeans ever see the light of day? I doubt that many would bet much money on the airline actually taking to the skies but, so far as is known, the project has not been abandoned.

It doesn't look as though we shall see FlyForBeans in the near future - no real surprise to anyone I would suggest.

Writing in another aviation forum Tim Lee's alter ego suggested that CWL's only real hope is a 'well funded start-up' but he says that at the moment the economic climate is 'beyond awful' for any sort of start-up.

While he might be correct in saying the economic climate is "beyond awful", I can't remember a time when the aviation industry was a desirable industry to invest in.

The aviation industry has always been a very risky industry to invest in. Numerous airlines, more than I care to remember have gone under even through more economically favorable times. Air Europe, Hispania, Spantax, Capital Airlines, PAN-AM, Sky Europe spring to mind but well over 200 airlines have gone under since the year 2000.

I do wonder if the airline was always going to be a paper airline with the airlines founder looking for the cloud with the silver lining or the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow?

 

[pug]

Im not sure I can agree Aviador. The airline seem to have done a hell of a lot of work both in terms of assessing the market and securing financial backers. I agree that airlines collapsed during the better financial times, but securing fundin now is clearly proving difficult considering the fragile state of the economy. One of the people behind this has said themselves that the market they were intending to serve could be hard hit by the cuts in the future. BRS has a huge market share that anyone trying to setup would need to be established already. Jet2 would be well suited IMO. Perhaps FR if this APD thing comes off and they leave BRS. But setting up a new airline from scratch, in what sounds like quite a competitive market, in the current economic uncertainty, is a complete non-starter IMO.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

I do wonder if the airline was always going to be a paper airline with the airlines founder looking for the cloud with the silver lining or the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow?

Tim Lee is an experienced operator when it comes to setting up airlines and he knows the Welsh scene intimately, even though he's been based in Dubai for a number of years.

He's said in the past that FFB would be a true low-cost airlines (in its business model) and he contends that there are only two truly low-cost airlines - Southwest Airlines of the USA which set the pattern for the low cost bonanza of the future, whether true low-cost airlines or not, and Ryanair.

He said that by basing FFB on this model he could achieve success at CWL. I hope he didn't intend to copy Ryanair's outspoken and confrontational way of working.

At the time of the FFB announcement in 2007 confident noises were made about sufficient backers being on board but soon afterwards the beginning of the biggest world recession in living memory poked its head over the parapet and the financial world was a different place, almost overnight.

Remember also that in 2007 bmibaby still had a reasonable network at CWL with no obvious signs of the decline and subsequent pullout at the airport we now know about, and the FFB people were convinced they could develop alongside it.

My feeling is that this was a serious venture - may still be in the future - but that it has been overtaken by events out of its hands.

 

[Aviador]

I don't disagree with what you say TheLocalYokel and my previous comment was a rather cheeky way of provoking a reaction to gage what other people thought on the matter.

I have no doubt so far as Tim's ability to launch an airline from Cardiff. It is extremely frustrating that this venture cannot get off the ground especially given how underserved Cardiff airport is.

It would seem local competition from Bristol airport is more feared than I previously thought given the amount of reservations by airlines and potential airlines in starting up at Cardiff airport.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Bristol is certainly the airport of choice of many in South Wales, or perhaps the airport of necessity is a better description.

I think that once the Bristol City Council came to terms with its own political dogma (it was rather champagne-socialist led for a time in the 80s) and decided it would try to make a go of its airport there was always the near-certainty that it would eventually be the bigger of the two Severnside airports.

Until the early 80s it was a drain on tax payers but it struck gold with the appointment then of Les Wilson as MD. He was a charismatic individual who probably had Bristol Airport written across his chest and he almost single-handedly began to drag it out of its 1950s torpor. Sadly he was killed in a car accident in 1995 before he saw the true results of his labour.

Excellent management and supportive owners once it had been partly-privatised in 1997 and fully privatised in 2000 saw BRS make the most of its larger and better set-up catchment (both business and leisure) relative to CWL.

When the economy really begins to pick up CWL will come again but, short of government interference to manipulate markets, it will never be the size of BRS in passenger numbers, carriers and routes.

 

[Aviador]

I know this is quite an old topic but I was doing some snooping online and found out that FFB were planning to operate Budapest from CWL.

I now know 4 of the 12 planned destinations:

* Budapest
* Reykjavik
* Istanbul
* Malta


Could these of worked? :dunno:

That would have been a nice selection of destinations. I can't imagine them working on a daily basis but they would probably have worked once or twice weekly. If the other flights were to operate to more traditional Mediterranean sun spots it might have worked well for them. One day, perhaps.

 

[pug]

One of the people behind this venture often posts on the dried fruit forum, suggests that trading conditions are tough.. I suspect if anyone was privy to such information then it would be him (as someone looking seriously at starting an airline), I wouldn't hold out for much at the moment.

On another note, I see that the rumoured announcement for today hasn't happened. Anyone know any further?

 

[TheLocalYokel]

I've heard the rumours of Malta and Reykjavik for a long time. They both appeared on those airports' destination boards for short periods.

Reykjavik seems a surprising route. It must have limited appeal - perhaps a weekly flight at weekends in summer for tourists.

Budapest should find good loads though Ryanair axed its BRS route this summer even though the monthly lfs were invariably 90%-plus in most of the summer months of recent years. It's believed the cost of accessing BUD is high.

It's interesting that Tim Lee once said his airline would be a true low-cost airline in its business model and he believes there are only two currently flying: The American Southwest Airlines (the original low-co) and Ryanair, so could he make BUD work from Severnside if Ryanair can't despite very high load factors?

Malta should be fine but the jury may be out regarding the level of passenger support that an Istanbul route would receive. In its favour is that it would have no competition from anywhere in the south west of Britain.

Tim Lee, and his alter ego, rightly regard serious market research and market identification as indispensable so it can be safely assumed FFB would not be lacking in this regard if it took to the skies.

In the current economic climate it seems certain the airline won't be starting up in the immediate future, as the MD's alter ego has all but admitted.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

A Wales web newspaper is now reporting that FlyForBeans is the group negotiating with Lufthansa to take on bmibaby - see full report at the link at the bottom of this post.

Presumably this refers to the first group to sign a term sheet which contradicts a recent report that the Stobart Group was involved.

There is now a second contender anyway in the form of an EU-based airline group for which there is some newspaper speculation that it's Ryanair..

The below linked report suggests that if FlyForBeans takes over bmibaby two aircraft will be based at CWL, though the bmibaby name would disappear later this year.

All very intriguing.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business-i ... -30474995/