Road, Rail & Access Issues

[quik123]

As a further example of how slow we seem to be at change, the so called red route parking enforcement in front of the airport was passed by the council back in April ( I think) yet nothing has happened.

 

[leedslad]

Consultation on the road and rail halt by the council due in Jan or Feb... Even though there's already been a consultation...

 

[White Heather]

Yes, I believe there is a meeting next week with the West Yorkshire Combined Authority and things like the station and road may be up for discussion. Neither are binned, but I agree that around here everything takes far too long. We have public consultations and then further public consultations. Re the road, I know that the council are now working up the detailed design and route following the first public consultation and for the next one, they will have the finalised route and all the necessary details - including the costs. LBA did say on Thursday that they were continuing to press for the rail station to be delivered as early as possible.
As for the red route, this is still waiting for the Leeds City Council approving officer to sign it off. Again, typical, as it appears to have been in his/her in-tray for well over 3 months now.

 

[Tarn Spotter]

Blah blah blah. You can't value what we get back in return. Number crunch as much as you like. Even Teresa May admitted her deal isn't as good as staying in the EU.

I agree you cant predict what the future will bring.
However, you can make changes to overcome any situation.
On Saturday I attended a Christmas dinner for a company I own with 200 staff all involved in supply products to europe, with around a third of the components coming just in time from europe.
Our main european customers also attended, we have made plans in the event of any type of brexit, hard, soft etc.,, we had experience of Dover being closed for 25 days in 2015 and the beast from the east this year as a guide to dock movement issues.
Movement in new tariffs rates cannot be as wide as currancy since the euro, we have seen rates between 1.05 and 1.42, never mind the huge swings we had between the pound and italian lira etc.before the euro.
As a business we look at the future, not the past, 90% of growth in world trade in the next decade will be outside europe, Europe in the year 2000 was 55% of our total world trade, today 43% and falling. For 5 years we have planned all growth to be outside europe, this last year opening talks in Australia and New Zealand, countries that in 1972 used to be bedrocks of our business, but all lost post 1972
Business just got on with the new situation, if companies dont change and adapt to the rules they will fail, we have had America making huge changes to international trade, especially if you deal with China as we do in the last 6 months, have not heard of any u.k. job losses.
Will be interesting on wednesday when the e.u. publish 30, no deal policy documents, one outlining, for this forum especially, how they see the aircraft movement rules and whether it dovetails with u.k. thoughts.

 

[lbaspotter]

Good news, I've just been informed that Leeds City Council plan to start the next round of public consultation regards both the proposed Airport Parkway Rail Station & A65-A658 Airport Link Road as from February 18th 2019..

You will able to view detailed plans and leave feed back online at www.Leeds.gov.uk/connectinglba or view the plans at 5 of the planned drop in events that are being held at local venues in the area. See leaflet below.

 

[leedslad]

Still think it would be crazy if they don't build the 'potential Parkway access route' under the route of option A by tunnel.

Otherwise they're adding millions on to any future business case for a direct tram train link to the terminal. They'd have to close the new road and retro build a bridge if that were the case.

It would have the added benefit of very reliable journey times for the bus link too.

 

[White Heather]

I agree but I cannot see any other option that A being chosen to be honest. They want a park and ride and they know that without the Option A link road, there would be no suitable access to it. You cannot have one without the other. Having a link road that joins the A658 near the tunnel entrance is pointless as it would do nothing to stop the current queuing through the tunnel in peak periods, and neither would a simple upgrade of the A65/A658. Only Option A will work. It will be far more expensive though so it will be interesting to see if the decision is based on common sense or money.

 

[leedslad]

Not sure if I made my point clearly... I was referring to the dotted line on the map stating that should go under option A by a new tunnel/bridge.

Of course agree option A seems the only viable one given the Parkway.

 

[White Heather]

A tunnel would be good . Looking at the plan it appears that any shuttle buses to the airport will have to join the new road for a short distance, suggesting it would have to be either a roundabout (cheap option) or tunnel under the road and then a slip road on to it. Failing that there could be a tunnel straight under the road and leading on to airport land (ie: the long stay car parks), but my view is that the shuttle bus should take the fastest possible route to the terminal and I assume that would involve the main road.

 

[leedslad]

I've a feeling a read somewhere that it would be the car park buses continuing through to the Parkway? Could be wrong.

A tunnel is a must otherwise it means Tram Train will be ruled out forever (since the business case to retro build a tunnel once the road open would be prohibitive)

 

[Tarn Spotter]

If we wish to deter commuter traffic to Leeds from Otley, Ilkely, etc (A65, A660) were going to have to have a large car park at the station alone, the 297 spaces at the Apperley Bridge car park, opened only two years ago are now full when I use.
You have to be looking in excess of 1000 spaces.
When you consider the outer ring road (A6120) will be the outer ring of the CAZ (clean Air Zone), charges come in to effect on the 6th Jan next year.
Whilst private cars avoid the charge, the next measure to meet pollution levels is April 2020, whilst we may have left the e.u. all the regulations are being rolled over and hopefully tightened and we totally failed on the last measure to be within the legal levels, so cars will have to be included to meet the next date after 2020.
This makes the station and road vital in so many areas, airport traffic, commuter traffic, pollution etc.

 

[White Heather]

I've a feeling a read somewhere that it would be the car park buses continuing through to the Parkway? Could be wrong.

A tunnel is a must otherwise it means Tram Train will be ruled out forever (since the business case to retro build a tunnel once the road open would be prohibitive)

It will be the LBA car park buses (which are now full size single deck and almost new vehicles) that operate down to the Parkway Station. Whether that will be a dedicated service just to the station and back to the airport, or an extension of the current car park shuttle bus route to take in the station I don't know. A direct station bus would be quicker and better, and it could easily be timed to meet up with the incoming trains from Leeds and Harrogate/Knaresborough/York.
With regard to the future tram train possibilities, I don't think that running one up from the Harrogate line to the airport would be prejudiced by not building a tunnel at this time. In fact, since tram trains operate from overhead wires, I would suspect that the chosen method of crossing the new road would be a bridge, rather than a tunnel. In the grand scheme of things, the cost of a bridge over that road would be a minor expense compared to the costs of building such a scheme across Leeds, and possibly Bradford too.

 

[leedslad]

The YEP has picked this up but of course being the YEP has got it wrong. Using outdated image and stating consultation already open...

Surely any tram train route to terminal would still be in a cutting by the time it reached the route of option A. Hence my assumption it would need to cross under via a tunnel. In my opinion they should be masterplanning that also as part of the consultation even if it wouldn't be built for years. The most cost effective way of doing things rather than building a road that could create extra cost within a decade.

 

[White Heather]

The YEP has picked this up but of course being the YEP has got it wrong. Using outdated image and stating consultation already open...

Surely any tram train route to terminal would still be in a cutting by the time it reached the route of option A. Hence my assumption it would need to cross under via a tunnel. In my opinion they should be masterplanning that also as part of the consultation even if it wouldn't be built for years. The most cost effective way of doing things rather than building a road that could create extra cost within a decade.

We don't know if the tram train will be in a cutting or not at that point Leedslad. They can climb fairly steep gradients so might well be operating on the surface by then. I agree if they are in a cutting then a tunnel might be used, but it would need to be pretty deep to accommodate not only the tram train but also the overhead gantries and wires. Maintenance becomes more of an issue too when the power sources are inside a tunnel, less so when on a bridge. I have spoken to representatives of Leeds Council in the past about the need to plan for the future when developing their current plans for the road and station and the guy I spoke to seemed very aware of that need, but I don't see there will be a problem with this whichever engineering option they go for. Historically though, bridges are cheaper to build and maintain than tunnels.

 

[leedslad]

Can't see it having enough room to climb away from Bramhope tunnel to surface level then over the road as well? Anyway am no expert but exactly why any route should be masterplanned now to avoid this uncertainty...

 

[White Heather]

Can't see it having enough room to climb away from Bramhope tunnel to surface level then over the road as well? Anyway am no expert but exactly why any route should be masterplanned now to avoid this uncertainty...

There is plenty of room for that Leedslad. Look at the slopes trams go up in Sheffield - they are very steep in places. The distance from the new station up to the road (being planned) is approximately a quarter of a mile and that is assuming the tram line went in a straight line as the road appears to do on the plan. Chances are though that any tram train of the future wouldn't do that and might be routed further to the North before crossing under or over the road and on up to the airport, providing a greater distance in which to climb to that level. I suspect though that we will have a long wait to find out!

 

[Len Fish]

A bit of research shows the maximum gradient for the Sheffield Supertrams is 10% (1:10 in old money) around the same as Otley Chevin. Apparently trams are capable of climbing even steeper hills but the maximum gradient is dictated by the requirement to still get up the hill with a partial motor failure.

 

[quik123]

I noticed they've started to paint the double red lines today. Already seen at least one car ignoring them! Here's hoping it ends up better in the long run.

 

[Aviador]

You were quik there, you beat me to it! I saw the work in progress earlier today. I don't think they go far enough on the Yeadon end though.

 

[lbaspotter]

Ah it all make sense now, I had wondered why the dual carriage way section of the A658 under the runway tunnel was down to single lane in both directions Monday & Tuesday daytime last week...