Cardiff Airport - General Thread

[Em0866]

It's a shame the BRS ACC meetings are like that...after all it is the passengers that use the airport. I am not sure how long the minutes of the CWL ACC meeting take, but it will be interesting to see them. I would have thought, however, that there would not be any surprises at them...even a hint of a news story...that is what the announcements they make on Twitter feeds etc are for

 

[Tinkerman]

Some form of announcement is expected at CWL next week ... Sounds route related !

 

[superking]

Some form of announcement is expected at CWL next week ... Sounds route related !

on another forum i was reading they were saying its departure lounge related as they just updated. i hope you are right about route related. time will tell.

 

[Tinkerman]

on another forum i was reading they were saying its departure lounge related as they just updated. i hope you are right about route related. time will tell.

I hope i'm right too ! CWL needs a Summer 2017 boost or maybe even a Winter 2016/17 boost since FR have gone through BOH and BRS in the last two days announcing new routes.

I'm confident something will be announced soon, even if it isn't Jet2, in which case i'd probably bet on VY, BE or FR doing something ...

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Still lots of people from Wales using BRS. I counted 38 people getting off the National Express coach from Cardiff and Newport at 10.15 this morning. As has been mentioned a number of times in recent weeks, CWL's sun routes are still running hugely under capacity compared with a decade ago.

 

[Em0866]

CWL have a way to go yet as they have to get more routes and also sing from the rooftops on the routes they do have. Also to get people to think about considering flying from their Welsh airport first. Of course some of these people may have been flying to destinations that are not currently served from CWL.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

That's true but when I am at BRS - I'm often outside the terminal as I am a serious walker who uses the local buses that interchange at the airport re my walks - there are invariably coach parties on vehicles with South Wales addresses. They are often stag/hen group who will be going to the sun most of the time. There was a stag group alighting from a Welsh coach in the short time I was at the front of the BRS terminal this morning.

 

[Em0866]

These stag and hen breaks I assume would be to places in Spain and flying to PMI, ALC, IBZ, AGP etc which are all served from CWL. Why is this? Probably because they are served by well known airlines like Ryanair and Easyjet I would imagine

 

[TheLocalYokel]

I guess so. Price might come into it of course and there are still days when Vueling for example doesn't operate from CWL to the sun.

 

[Em0866]

This is true. More frequency from BRS than from CWL too. There is definitely a gap in the market during the summer from CWL to these Spanish destinations

 

[TheLocalYokel]

On a more general theme, the apparent aspirations of the First Minister and others for CWL to become Wales's national airport were brought into focus this week by comments in the MAN thread. Apparently Arriva Trains Wales has secured paths for three more daily trains from North Wales to Manchester Airport, and MAN regards North Wales as very much part of its catchment.

Realistically, CWL can really only ever become the national airport for South Wales and parts of Mid Wales, which means that to really grow it has to reach out to areas beyond South Wales, ie West of England and South Midlands mainly.

I've not just invented the wheel as this has been recognised for many years but so far no-one has been able to find a way to do it in meaningful numbers.

 

[Em0866]

Sometimes politicians say things without thinking (underestimation of the century). North Wales could never be in the catchment area of CWL for various reasons, but mostly the location of LPL and MAN so close and the mountains in mid Wales which act as a barrier between north and south Wales.

As you say, to help CWL become successful they need to attract pax from outside of the south and west Wales areas and reach beyond the borders. How can they do this? That's the $64,000 question, but maybe to attrract and airlines or a destination not currently offered by BRS. Not easy and BRS seem to be able to have their finger on the pulse and are ahead of the game here. This is where CWL needs to improve.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

When Zoom operated from CWL to Toronto and Vancouver I know of West Country people personally who used the service. The same goes for the winter Caribbean cruise flights of which BRS has had very few down the years.

Many people from South Wales have just got into the habit of using BRS. Neighbours of ours used to fly to Malaga every year with Thomson and for some reason, I forget what if I ever knew, they used CWL the first time they went. Thereafter they did the same each year even though they could have flown with Thomson from BRS (they live about 20 minutes from this airport) in subsequent years but they were satisfied with their CWL experience and were happy to repeat the 'habit'. A minor example I know but it does point up the psyche of some people, maybe a lot of people.

 

[Em0866]

When flights ceased with Zoom from CWL it ended years of a link with Canada which started in the late 70s with CP Air. I know, many pax from outside of the South Wales area used the service to YYZ and then later to YVR. That was a huge loss for CWL.

Interestingly the cruise flights to the Caribbean seems to do very well from CWL and I have often wondered why so many of them go from CWL and not BRS. The same can be said for next winter with the cruise flights which start in Dubai...although the TOM flights don't fly to DXB but to the other airport there (the name escaped me for now).

Back to the point though, it is mostly a habit that people form this side of the bridge fly from BRS. Habits can change and I think CWL can win some of those pax back. What will be interesting is to see how the new First Minister with a coalition Government in the Welsh Assembly will do over the next term. That Government has not yet been formalised, but I hope it will be business as usual once the new Government has been formed.

 

[User001]

Realistically, CWL can really only ever become the national airport for South Wales and parts of Mid Wales, which means that to really grow it has to reach out to areas beyond South Wales, ie West of England and South Midlands mainly.

This is why I would struggle to support the idea of devolved APD for Wales, as, it's trying to being sold as a 'whole of Wales' benefit, when the people of North Wales would loose out yet again (but as ever pay elsewhere to let South Wales have the lower APD as well as seeing no benefit).

The only way I would support devolved APD would be if it worked on a post code basis, and not just airport basis. By that I mean and resident with a permanent postcode in Wales can apply to have the lower APD rate. However, this will never happen, as I just wish the politicians would just be honest and say it's a CWL booster, and not Wales.

As someone who grew up in North Wales, it's frustrating to see that not only is North wales left out in the North/south divide of the U.K. In general, but also left out when it comes to north/South Wales.

NW has long fought for electrification of the railway line, with Virgin trains lobbying hard to get it done but to no avail, with seemingly the only excuse given was 'South Wales needs it first' (of course it does ), and the fact NW has to fight as hard as it is doing just for a few paths to its main local airport says it all.

The A55 is crying out for motorway status being a trunk route from Europe to Ireland, the only jobs seem to be tourism or NHS, and the old seaside towns now look delapidated (Rhyl looks ever more like a bomb site, even more than usual).

So in answer, no, CWL is not a 'whole of Wales' airport, by a long shot, and while it's a shame to feel as bitter as I do towards South Wales, if you were from North Wales, you'd be bitter too, as a lot of people in the north are.

 

[Aviador]

On the back of any potential devolution of Air Passenger Duty to Wales, the Welsh Assembly will soon realise it has to keep the APD. If you think airports like Leeds Bradford and Liverpool are airports handling between 3.5m and 4.5m passengers per annum and they're still not making money. It's going to be a tough call in the event of devolution of APD to the Welsh Assembly. We know that airports are regarded as a source of inward investment particularly with the leisure industry. The choice is either use the APD to offer deals to get new airlines and routes or offer lower APD. Being able to offer a good deal to airlines is probably more likely to bring new business to the airport than reducing APD in my opinion.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

On the back of any potential devolution of Air Passenger Duty to Wales, the Welsh Assembly will soon realise it has to keep the APD. If you think airports like Leeds Bradford and Liverpool are airports handling between 3.5m and 4.5m passengers per annum and they're still not making money. It's going to be a tough call in the event of devolution of APD to the Welsh Assembly. We know that airports are regarded as a source of inward investment particularly with the leisure industry. The choice is either use the APD to offer deals to get new airlines and routes or offer lower APD. Being able to offer a good deal to airlines is probably more likely to bring new business to the airport than reducing APD in my opinion.

Although CWL is fully owned by the Wales Assembly Government it's done through an arm's length company. Consequently taxation matters such as air passenger duty will not impact directly on the airport company's finances or fortunes. One example of this separation is the CWL airport bus which is paid for by the WAG and not by its airport company (at several hundred thousand pounds a year initially) with lots of complaints around the country that at the same time rural bus services were/are being curtailed. This means that the cost of the airport bus is not shown in the airport company's accounts thus reducing the current losses made by the airport.

The WAG has also loaned itself (ie the airport company) £13 million for route development purposes which has had the almost immediate effect of bringing in the Flybe network, the main driver of CWL's spectacular percentage passenger number increases over the past year.

As I said earlier APD won't have any direct effect on the finances of the airport company but indirectly if a nil rate APD rate is introduced in Wales and brings in many more passengers to CWL then obviously the airport's fortunes will soar.

If APD is devolved (we are still waiting to see if it is to be included in the new Wales Bill that should be published later this year) then the Westminster Government will reduce its block grant by an amount equal to that which the WAG could have raised if it continued to charge APD. Presumably Westminster will calculate the amount based on the English rate.

The more passengers that CWL attracts the more money the WAG will lose in tax payments but the WAG's argument is that this will be balanced and and then improved by the increasing strength of the Welsh economy brought about by a vibrant national airport.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Watching the European Champions League Final on tv last night (I must admit I became bored with the match at times and it finished with one of the things in football that I hate, a penalty shoot-out) reminded me that the 2017 final will be held at the Millennium Stadium, Cardiff on 3 June.

The airport and CWL aficionados will no doubt be hoping that next year's final won't involve a Premier League club as they will want two overseas clubs contesting the match with, from the airport's perspective a greater footfall to feed their ancillary revenue streams such as the retail/refreshment outlets and landing/parking fees, and from the spotters' viewpoint a number of airlines and perhaps aircraft types not regularly seen at the airport.

 

[Em0866]

Yes just a year to go. I wonder, however, whether BRS would be used too in order to fly all of these people in. One would hope that those in CWL have been taking note from this year so that they would be well prepared for a year's time!

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Given the longstanding debate in South Wales and West Country aviation circles about CWL and BRS, an interesting footnote of history is provided in the 1978 government white paper Airports Policy which put all UK airports into four categories:

Category A Gateway International Airports
Category B Regional Airports
Category C Local airports
Category D General aviation airports

CWL was placed in category B and BRS was placed in category C. I well remember the disgust in the local West Country press that BRS had effectively been downgraded and that CWL was regarded as the primary regional airport for South Wales and the West Country.

I can't remember the rationale for the decision, if there was one. Both airports were handling the same amount of passengers each year: CWL 234,000 and BRS 233,000 in 1978. In 1977 the figures were CWL 196,000 and BRS 211,000, and in 1979 CWL 254,000 and BRS 238,000. CWL's runway extension hadn't been built then so its runway was only 150 metres longer that BRS's.

How things have changed. The categorisation of airports in this way seems to have fallen into disuse. It certainly wasn't mentioned in the 2003 government white paper The Future of Air Transport which led to the master plans that airports now have in their bottom drawer, or in some cases on their desk.