Manchester: Infrastructure, Developments and Construction

[Dobbo]

I am by no means a rail expert but I do take an interest in infrastructure.

Some plans for a largely new build HS3 between Leeds and Manchester were revealed in around March of this year. I think from the National Infrastructure Committee.

They involved a tunnelled route between Leeds and Manchester entering an underground box under Manchester Piccadilly.

The tunnel would emerge and merge with the HS2 tunnel from Piccadilly to the Airport. Presumably a new section for use by HS2 and HS3 services would be built to Liverpool.

This has largely gone silent following the change in government altjough the signs are starting to emerge that suggest the Northern Powerhouse remains in the agenda. Whether that means HS3 remains in that form is anyone's guess.

Plainly this and HS2 in its current form would be great assets for MAN providing they get the airport station, terminal and motorway access right.

The M56 is going to be very very busy in 20 years or thereabouts...

 

[EGCC_MAN]

Noted that MAN T1 had TEN immigration e-gates in operation when I passed through yesterday morning. Kept things moving pretty well. I was told they'd been upto ten cubicles in there for afew months now. Do we have the latest numbers for T3 and T2? I seem to remember 5 or 6 available at T3 on a recent arrival - I'll pass through there again in a couple of weeks so will make a point of checking.

I may be greedy, but I reckon that if we could get upto 20-25 e-gates working per terminal those notorious immigration queues would be a thing of the past. Keep them coming ... an investment with substantial tangible payback.

 

[Dobbo]

Sorting these out sjould be a given in the new T2.

If they can be sorted out long term in T3 and in the shorter term in T1 it would certainly remove a major bine of contention from most travellers.

 

[Dobbo]

A very odd post on dried fruit about a scaling back of the TP. The main points were that the budget had been slashed and the ambition downgraded.

This is odd because my understanding of the project is:

• The budget was in the region of £850m with a £150m contingency.
• Of that £850m at least £150m was earmarked for matters other than building.
• Planning permission for the extended permi sl buildings has been granted and the project is phased allowing MAN to expand as they see fit.

 

[User001]

I think the posted has some wires crossed somewhere. As I commented on there, the project was never going to cost the full £1bn anyway, and the Chinese are not involved in the terminal construction, just airport city. So, the jitters are non existent, the terminal is nothing to do with them.

 

[Dobbo]

Yeah - the chinese point may be valid in the context of airport city, but investment in the terminal is an airport matter.

Very strange post, but you are probably right that it is crossed wires.

 

[Land23R]

I agree there has likely been some wires crossed. However, there is still the question of whether or not the guy 'high up in the plc' (as the poster referred to him) specifically said there was a scaling-down, and if so whether that referred to the TP or Airport City; or whether it was simply the poster's interpretation of some general comments made to him.

As Aceshigh has mentioned, it's over 4 years since Airport City was officially approved of what was admittedly seen as a long term project over some 15 years I believe. Nevertheless, despite it being reported that a new management team had been appointed earlier this year, things do appear to have gone somewhat quiet.

 

[EGCC_MAN]

I took the scaling down comment as a reference to the Airport City development in which Chinese money is committed to developing a 'Chinese Quarter'. My understanding was that funding for the TP is raised internally by MAG with borrowing from regular commercial credit market channels as required. I have not come across any suggestion that Chinese funding is playing a role in the TP. Have I misunderstood this?

It makes sense for the Chinese investors to express caution about Airport City at this point. But the TP is much-needed new-for-old capacity replacement which has a proven existing market to serve. I'd be extremely surprised if the TP was scaled back due to any reticence from Chinese financiers.

On the wider economic front, note that the financial markets are delighted by news of Republican control of both US legislative houses, regardless of the unpopularity of the new figurehead in the mainstream media. Personalities aside, he is a highly-experienced CEO with years of business experience and the ability to delegate well on matters financial. The Republicans are generally perceived as a 'safe pair of hands' on economic matters.

 

[User001]

The airport city may scale down until confirmed tenants are acquired. No point building anything unless required.

It's surprising nothing is required yet, office lets around the airport are at an all time high and I know Hainan are to take up a decent office space in the airport vacinity.

 

[Dobbo]

That may well be true, but when you consider the scale of office construction in Manchester City Centre that probably attracts a large number of prospective airport city tenants away from airport city (which is probably attractive to a very specific tenant profile).

 

[Dobbo]

No change, but the HS2 station is in the confirmed route from Birmingham to Manchester. As before, this remains subject to local contribution.

The station is proposed with two platforms and two through lines. This would make it difficult for HS2 and HS3 trains to both fit in a stopping service pattern. I suspect that 4 platforms will be required and funding for this will have to come from the HS3 budget.

Good news for the airport, who IMO should integrate this as closely as possible with the expanded terminal 2.

 

[Coathanger16]

Could the developments regarding HS2 be a contributing factor in why development of the Airport City has slowed? Would land around the HS2 station be more attractive for development than the current proposed site and the "powers that be" are waiting for HS2 to be confirmed?

 

[Dobbo]

It is possible. I beleive there is a piece of HS2 legislation (or draft legislation) granting the government power to CPO land around the stations for commercial development. I beleive it is clause 50 of whatever legislation it is.

This may include Airport City in theory, and that might give investors the jitters if they think their project might get hijacked by the public sector.

All in all, HS2/3 should be great news for MAN (and BHX) by making the major regional cities and also London much more accessible. If this focus on connecting the North continues, expect MAN to be a major beneficiary.

 

[Aceshigh]

I would love somebody to spell the commercial case re the HS2 station.

To a man "everybody " states how easy it will be to get to London.

Passengers are not going to fly into Manchester then commute to London so please make the case as I want to believe genuinely

 

[Dobbo]

It's not about attracting london passengers to MAN, or BHX. That will be a small percentage of the total passenger numbers, but handy.

The stations at MAN and BHX are not about the airports, it's to act as a railhead for passengers outside of the Manchester/Birmingham City centres.

On a larger scale, it's about capacity between our major cities with the speed and increased connectivity a positive secondary factor. Capacity is not just passenger capacity, but freight.

The problems with the present WCML and ECML is that it has two tracks in each direction trying to cater for three different types of services (freight, commuter and long distance passenger). Three into two don't go, unless the track is used inefficiently.

The solution is to build a new line to take the long distance services off the WCML and ECML to make better use of the conventional track for freight and commuter services into the cities.

Upgrading existing lines is not a realistic option (see disruption to the WCML and now GWML) and does not deliver the transformational differences that will shrink the country and bring it closer together.

That's about it, in a nutshell!

 

[Dobbo]

P.s.

To me, getting HS3 (Liverpool-MAN-Manchester-Leeds-Sheffield/Newcastle) is the more important project for the North.

 

[Aceshigh]

Totally agree with all your points Dobbo re general capacity etc etc and of course 100% HS3 🙂

.......it's just the location of the railhead.

By placing it at MAN Airport, it appears to me to send a message that it is strategically important "to the airport". I absolutely want service to the South say Crewe, Stoke Stafford etc providing as much connectivity from the South as we have from the Nouth is sorely needed.

Will hs2 provide this ?

Will the airport be required to part fund ?

If so the case for investment elsewhere is possibly more compelling.

If there is central funding for this does that then leave open a blank cheque for throwing a disproportionate slug of cash at Heathrow which we are promised will get zero taxpayer funding. (allegedly ).

If you are going to have another Manchester station maybe Man aiport is indeed simply best location.

 

[Coathanger16]

Having read through the latest government release regarding phase 2 of HS2, one of the points that was made is that with HS2, Birmingham will be just 30 minutes from Manchester Airport. As a Birmingham Airport local, I'm not too put off by that (firstly it won't open for another 17 years), but more because I don't see HS2 doing anything for Birmingham Airport anyway. As Dobbo pointed out, the airport stations are designed just as much for those living outside the city centers as for those wishing to travel to the airport, if not more so.

.......it's just the location of the railhead.

I think the airport was chosen as the site for the stations for good reason. The route of HS2 into Manchester will be approaching from the South, and Manchester Airport is arguably the largest "focal point" to the South of Manchester. It already has decent links to the surrounding area with the existing rail and metro lines allowing passengers from a more rural area access to HS2.

The scheme that would help Manchester Airport more is of course HS3 - I just wish someone would propose a similar scheme for the Midlands, building new rail alongside HS2 to better connect Birmingham, Coventry, Nottingham, Derby & Leicester. Its currently quicker to drive from Nottingham to Birmingham than it is to catch a train!

 

[Dobbo]

I think that's right, although for airports generally people are reluctant to use public transport. Perhaps that will change by 2033!

 

[EGCC_MAN]

In answer to Aceshigh's post, HS2 will (indirectly) open up greater opportunities for Manchester Airport to be served by trains from points such as Stafford and Stoke. HS2 will free up a considerable number of paths on the traditional WCML which will be used not only for freight but also to open up new commuter services which cannot be accommodated based on present capacity restraints. The opportunity will be there for Manchester Airport's existing railway station to expand its southbound offerings as a result. However, it would be nice to receive at least an hourly service to destinations such as these well before 2033!