Bristol Airport - General Thread

You need to wake up and smell the coffee. It’s a vanity project pure and simple. If the Welsh government really was interested in saving jobs why didn’t they use subsidies to help employees at Wilko or Poundland? As for the jobs at CWL you talk about, the airline staff will be moved to other airports. The handling agent actually already some staff from BRS at CWL so no jobs lost there! If BA had to relocate their engineers would be offered employment at the relocation. It’s insolvent and so far hundreds of millions of taxpayers money has been used to keep it afloat. That is totally wrong. You go round and round and round in circles to try to convince yourself spending money that could and should be used for better things is wonderful. It isn’t!! As I told you earlier if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it’s probably a duck. I will add that it’s probably limping because it’s a lame duck!!!

Red Flyer said:

You need to wake up and smell the coffee. It’s a vanity project pure and simple. If the Welsh government really was interested in saving jobs why didn’t they use subsidies to help employees at Wilko or Poundland? As for the jobs at CWL you talk about, the airline staff will be moved to other airports. The handling agent actually already some staff from BRS at CWL so no jobs lost there! If BA had to relocate their engineers would be offered employment at the relocation. It’s insolvent and so far hundreds of millions of taxpayers money has been used to keep it afloat. That is totally wrong. You go round and round and round in circles to try to convince yourself spending money that could and should be used for better things is wonderful. It isn’t!! As I told you earlier if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it’s probably a duck. I will add that it’s probably limping because it’s a lame duck!!!

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So much to pick out from that.

Because Wilko and Poundland are private businesses that don't offer benefits to the Welsh economy in the same way an Airport would.

What if those staff, airline and airport, don't want to relocate? Same with BA staff.
Handling agent staff aren't paid very much, it's unlikely they'd be able to afford to move across the bridge or afford the travel.

All of those people moving from the area would directly impact the local economy.

I can tell you now, BRS and CWL staff often work both sides of the bridge when needed, but not regularly. So your point is either misinformed, or a lie.

BA would need to build a new hangar. Where do you propose that should be and why would they pay it when they have a long lease at CWL and have recently invested more into it?

What happened at CWL could be described as unfortunate for the Welsh Government. They stepped in at a time when the current owner weren't interested in it, it had no invested and passenger numbers declined rapidly from it's peak of 2m passengers to below 800k.
After the Welsh Government took over things gradually improved again up to 2019 where numbers returned to just over 1.6m passengers.
Then covid hit, Flybe went bust, Thomas cook went bust, Qatar left.

Things are slowly back on the up, but with fewer airline options to attract. CWL needs to diversify and the Welsh Government are stuck with it. In reality the airfield can't close because of BA, so it still needs to operate as an airfield and the associated costs even if the terminal closes. The Welsh Goverment are the owners of it, so the money needs to come from somewhere, and in the Airport industry it takes investment to see returns, exactly what is happening. The money isn't just being spent on patching things up and staff wages, it's being put to use to attract airlines, MRO and other investment to provide a return for Wales. In turn will see more jobs, and make Wales more attractive to visit.

Anyone that wishes CWL to close, for the benefit of BRS, is effectively advocating to hundreds of people to be made redundant.

So naive! Blame everyone and everything except the facts. CWL was a private company until it was decided that it would make a good vanity project!! Jobs lost at some employers are obviously less valuable! Customers buying goods in those companies didn’t help the Welsh economy? Utter nonsense!! Nothing is ever the fault of CWL? COVID didn’t hit other airports & Thomas Cook didn’t go bust at other airports? More excuses. BE were already cutting back because even with their deal with CWL they still couldn’t make it pay! You know you can’t justify taxpayers money being used to bail out an ailing company so like others you try to make excuses. Things are slowly on the up because of the use of taxpayer cash!!
Very strange you’re worried about jobs at CWL but couldn’t be bothered about the jobs at other companies!! I’d say that’s a bit of hypocrisy!! Watch out for the duck with a limp!!

Jerry said:

If you look at the MRO and cargo side of the operation that's something Bristol doesn’t have and hasn't come out with any plans that it has them in development.

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Both of these feature in the 2040/15MPPA master plan however they should serve completely different purposes between the 2 airports, for the time being at least.

Red Flyer said:

As for the jobs at CWL you talk about, the airline staff will be moved to other airports. The handling agent actually already some staff from BRS at CWL so no jobs lost there! If BA had to relocate their engineers would be offered employment at the relocation.

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Not in Wales though they'd be moved out of the country and many wouldn't be able to relocate as its unlikely they'd be able to move out of the country and there's no guarantee all the jobs would be relocated to other airports in England or Bristol and there's no guarantee that the flights to and aircraft based at Cardiff would be relocated to anywhere in the UK they could go abroad. The Welsh governments job is to create jobs in Wales and that's what they are trying to do. As for Wilko or Poundland the Welsh government didn't own either of those companies. Tbh a better comparison maybe Port Talbot and Scunthorpe steelworks where the UK government has invested 100s of millions to keep them open and nationalised the latter.
The challenge for the Welsh government is that they can't close it down because of the effect that'll have on Wales. Maybe they should offer to sell part of it the Bristols owners!

Red Flyer said:

So naive! Blame everyone and everything except the facts. CWL was a private company until it was decided that it would make a good vanity project!! Jobs lost at some employers are obviously less valuable! Customers buying goods in those companies didn’t help the Welsh economy? Utter nonsense!! Nothing is ever the fault of CWL? COVID didn’t hit other airports & Thomas Cook didn’t go bust at other airports? More excuses. BE were already cutting back because even with their deal with CWL they still couldn’t make it pay! You know you can’t justify taxpayers money being used to bail out an ailing company so like others you try to make excuses. Things are slowly on the up because of the use of taxpayer cash!!
Very strange you’re worried about jobs at CWL but couldn’t be bothered about the jobs at other companies!! I’d say that’s a bit of hypocrisy!! Watch out for the duck with a limp!!

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I'm curious what do you think the effect on Bristol is with Cardiff being open?

t.ash.27 said:

Both of these feature in the 2040/15MPPA master plan however they should serve completely different purposes between the 2 airports, for the time being at least.

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Is the site big enough for an MRO hanger?

Jerry said:

Is the site big enough for an MRO hanger

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It's only a small one(2 aircraft) however as with everything at BRS I'm sure they'll want to make it bigger eventually.
The proposed location is around where the silver zone and hangers currently are

You must be getting giddy because you’re off again going round in circles. It doesn’t matter how many times you go round the result is the same. You make even more excuses to try to justify an insolvent company being bailed out with the taxpayers money! Before becoming a vanity project CWL wasn’t owned by the Welsh government. If they win the case what’s to stop them increasing the £205m to over £500m? They’re not spending their cash so why not just keep pumping more in!! Why would a prosperous company want to be saddled with a lame duck?
If both airports were playing by the same rules then probably no effect because an ailing insolvent company would be forced to call in administrators!!

Red Flyer said:

Before becoming a vanity project CWL wasn’t owned by the Welsh government.

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No it wasn't and look at what happened there.

Red Flyer said:

If they win the case what’s to stop them increasing the £205m to over £500m?

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That's not what's proposed though if they wanted to do £500 million they would have proposed that but instead they've put together a package for £205 million over 10 years.

Red Flyer said:

If both airports were playing by the same rules then probably no effect because an ailing insolvent company would be forced to call in administrators!!

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Is that what you hope will happen? That the WG would be forced to call in administrators? If that that did happen then what? Would Bristol really benefit from that?

Red Flyer said:

You must be getting giddy because you’re off again going round in circles. It doesn’t matter how many times you go round the result is the same. You make even more excuses to try to justify an insolvent company being bailed out with the taxpayers money! Before becoming a vanity project CWL wasn’t owned by the Welsh government. If they win the case what’s to stop them increasing the £205m to over £500m? They’re not spending their cash so why not just keep pumping more in!! Why would a prosperous company want to be saddled with a lame duck?
If both airports were playing by the same rules then probably no effect because an ailing insolvent company would be forced to call in administrators!!

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Someone is most definitely getting giddy…

Let’s cut the tit-for-tat and agree to disagree for the sake of everyone’s sanity?

As I told you earlier you give someone an inch and they take a mile!! Why would another business trust a government that is happy spending their taxpayer money to support their vanity project?
You want a level playing field then you have to accept the consequences!! It’s called business and only the fittest survive. I wonder what your stance would be if BRS was the ailing insolvent company and the government decided the West Country needed an airport so gave it £200m of taxpayers money and when that didn’t work gave it another £205m?

Red Flyer said:

You want a level playing field then you have to accept the consequences!!

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But there isn't a level playing field and never will be you only have to look at the passenger numbers for that.

Red Flyer said:

I wonder what your stance would be if BRS was the ailing insolvent company and the government decided the West Country needed an airport so gave it £200m of taxpayers money and when that didn’t work gave it another £205m?

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If the aim was economic and to protect jobs and a vital piece of the South Wests transport infrastructure (which Bristol is) and the government got shares in the business as a result I don't think i could complain too much especially if it would have minimal effect on Cardiff in the way Cardiff does with Bristol.

I do wonder if part of the solution to avail of Bristol's fears is maybe Bristol's owners invest in Cardiff? Public private partnership like many airports have.

Red Flyer said:

So naive! Blame everyone and everything except the facts. CWL was a private company until it was decided that it would make a good vanity project!! Jobs lost at some employers are obviously less valuable! Customers buying goods in those companies didn’t help the Welsh economy? Utter nonsense!! Nothing is ever the fault of CWL? COVID didn’t hit other airports & Thomas Cook didn’t go bust at other airports? More excuses. BE were already cutting back because even with their deal with CWL they still couldn’t make it pay! You know you can’t justify taxpayers money being used to bail out an ailing company so like others you try to make excuses. Things are slowly on the up because of the use of taxpayer cash!!
Very strange you’re worried about jobs at CWL but couldn’t be bothered about the jobs at other companies!! I’d say that’s a bit of hypocrisy!! Watch out for the duck with a limp!!

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Bit dramatic.

Facts: CWL was part of a portfolio of Belfast, Luton and Cardiff, with the first two being the owners main priority. Then that company wanted out of aviation, so little investment was put into CWL prior to that happening.

Which jobs lost at employers? Hypocrisy? You're putting words in my mouth.
Money has been put into several industries to save them. Steel making being one example in South Wales. With regards to tax payers money being used, millions has been given to Port Talbot steel works. Are you advocating for that to close down too? Thousands more made redundant on top of those already put out of work? Quite surprising take on things really. It is in the interest of the Welsh Government to protect large employers to protect the economy.

Covid hit all airports. But CWL wasn't in as good a position with it's airlines to recover from it. BRS already had EZY, FR, TUI etc, whereas CWL had no based low-cost carrier, even with passenger numbers rising before.

The deal with BE was absolutely complete overkill for what it was, no denying that, but there were routes that were profitable and still growing.

The difference with CWL getting money, is that the Welsh Government is the owner. If it was another large business, it would a handout to a private company, more controversial. It is in the interest of the Welsh Government to make sure the investment works in the long term. You have such a short sighted, and obviously biased to BRS, view of things.

Red Flyer said:

I wonder what your stance would be if BRS was the ailing insolvent company and the government decided the West Country needed an airport so gave it £200m of taxpayers money and when that didn’t work gave it another £205m?

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Crack on i'd say. Isn't that what's happening with Doncaster?

More excuses! Sometimes you have to accept that the problem lies within and not with someone else. It’s called taking responsibility. WW came and went but it was their fault. BE came and went the first time but was their fault. OAW tried and failed. IBS tried and failed. BE were handsomely rewarded but yet again it was another failure. The list is endless but it’s never the fault of anyone at CWL!!
The playing field was level in the 80s before the late great Les Wilson took BRS to a whole new level and on his untimely death they didn’t rest on their laurels the new managers and a person already there took them to a level only dreamed of!!
As it seems I’m upsetting Mr Fenner I’ll now call it a day and let you enjoy the Welsh government spending taxpayer money on the vanity project!!

Red Flyer said:

didn’t rest on their laurels the new managers and a person already there took them to a level only dreamed of!!

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And i'm sure Bristol will continue to grow as an airport and won't be held back by anything.

What I can't understand is that Cardiff does not have a limit on passenger numbers, but Bristol has. Am I being cynical in thinking that Bristol is trying to close Cardiff so that when they apply for an increase in passenger numbers they can say "we are the only airport in the area so we must have the increase"
Has Bristol asked the local populus if they are in agreement with this challenge? I am sure there are thousands of people who do not want Bristol to expand any more.

Seasider said:

What I can't understand is that Cardiff does not have a limit on passenger numbers,

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Cardiff is only limited by terminal size there's no legal restriction that I know of.
Bristol was able to get the limit raised to 12 million. I'd expect that they'd have little problem getting it raised to 15 million in the future but to get to 15 million Bristol is more likely going to have to attract airlines that are at Heathrow.

Bristol Airport submits next stage of major expansion plans and battle lines have already been drawn
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/...rt-submits-next-stage-10888130?utm_source=app

( from The Guardian Newspaper )

I see from doing a little research that BRS benefitted from a total of £6.24m in government money during the pandemic. Money which Cardiff wasn't eligible to apply for as it was only for airports in England.


OK, so £6.24m is not in the same league as £200m, but it did come at a critical time.
So much for the "level playing field".

Simply comparing apples and pears! What a rather strange comparison!!