Cardiff Airport - General Thread

[Foxlimayankee]

When does the cost of support outweigh this supposed strategic value?

Is the plan to just accept it will be loss making and live with the cost of support?



A private owner may come up with a plan to run the airport profitably, the lack of a backstop from the state may be a motivating factor.

But it wasn't profitable since Abertis let it go downhill. The Airport is there as a long term economic booster and any report you read about Airports will refer to the benefits an airport will have to the economy.
This is why it's part of the long term future of Wales. Shutting it now will mean it will unlikely ever reopen. Keeping it running with a view to profitability, hopefully within the next 5-10 years should be the goal.
Do I agree with tax payers money being used? No. Is there any other option to maintain that 5-10 year aspiration. I can't see one.

This is long term for Wales, not short term and people need to start understanding that.

 

[Jerry]

When does the cost of support outweigh this supposed strategic value?

Is the plan to just accept it will be loss making and live with the cost of support?

Depends on the value that people put on it. To me it's a strategic asset to invest in and continue to invest in like the railways. Hopefully it'll break even eventually.
As for a private owner I'm not sure the government will risk having to buy it again.

 

[Nigel B]

Jesus,we are talking about a national airport,what option do the WG have with regard funding,seems like some people on her would like the airport to fail.
It has had some dreadful bad luck in recent years,just as it was starting to grow.
Just remember the many millions of pounds the UK government spent on one middle man in the procurmunt of ppe.man and all the cronyism around that, with the magic money tree well and truly raided.
Some people need to take off the blinkers.

 

[Jerry]

Jesus,we are talking about a national airport,what option do the WG have with regard funding,seems like some people on her would like the airport to fail.

A lot of it comes down to the perception of government ownership. In the UK it seems to be perceived in a bad light, that private ownership is the only way things can be. I suspect that's down to the 70s and 80s. A lot of airports in other countries are owned by governments whether local or national.
I think what we need to remember is that airports generate their own mini economy around them. From coach companies carrying tourists to local bus companies operating express routes to independent car parking companies and local supplier's of food and hospitality. They all rely on airports as customers and for their business to actually exist.

 

[KARFA]

But it wasn't profitable since Abertis let it go downhill. The Airport is there as a long term economic booster and any report you read about Airports will refer to the benefits an airport will have to the economy.
This is why it's part of the long term future of Wales. Shutting it now will mean it will unlikely ever reopen. Keeping it running with a view to profitability, hopefully within the next 5-10 years should be the goal.
Do I agree with tax payers money being used? No. Is there any other option to maintain that 5-10 year aspiration. I can't see one.

This is long term for Wales, not short term and people need to start understanding that.

It has been unprofitable for at least nearly 10 years now. How long is your long term?

Are the economic benefits greater than the cost of subsidising it?

Jesus,we are talking about a national airport,what option do the WG have with regard funding,seems like some people on her would like the airport to fail.
It has had some dreadful bad luck in recent years,just as it was starting to grow.

Not at all. I don't want it to close. I want it to be successful and not have to rely on state handouts to keep operating. Isn't that what you want too? However, it is clear something needs to change to put it on a sustainable path. Clearly what has been done over the last 8/9 years prior to covid hasn't worked.

Just remember the many millions of pounds the UK government spent on one middle man in the procurmunt of ppe.man and all the cronyism around that, with the magic money tree well and truly raided.
Some people need to take off the blinkers.

Ah, whataboutery

 

[KARFA]

Depends on the value that people put on it. To me it's a strategic asset to invest in and continue to invest in like the railways. Hopefully it'll break even eventually.

So in the meantime how much should the WG be prepared to pay? What are your limits when you say the cost now outweighs this supposed strategic value?

A lot of it comes down to the perception of government ownership. In the UK it seems to be perceived in a bad light, that private ownership is the only way things can be. I suspect that's down to the 70s and 80s. A lot of airports in other countries are owned by governments whether local or national.
I think what we need to remember is that airports generate their own mini economy around them. From coach companies carrying tourists to local bus companies operating express routes to independent car parking companies and local supplier's of food and hospitality. They all rely on airports as customers and for their business to actually exist.

It is not perception, it is about money. State money is being used to support what should normally be a commercial enterprise.

I wonder whether the population of Wales prefer their money to be spent subsidising the airport or on other things like health, education etc.? Any idea?

 

[Jerry]

So in the meantime how much should the WG be prepared to pay? What are your limits when you say the cost now outweighs this supposed strategic value?

Whatever investment the airport needs.

It is not perception, it is about money. State money is being used to support what should normally be a commercial enterprise.

I wonder whether the population of Wales prefer their money to be spent subsidising the airport or on other things like health, education etc.? Any idea?

Well it is. We have a certain perception of what state money should be spent on. Health in many countries is a commercial enterprise yet its taboo to even mention privatisation. And governments don't just spend money on just health and education but things like transport infrastructure as well.
And if the Welsh people aren't happy with the government spending money on Cardiff airport or anything non health and education related then they have the opportunity to vote them out in May.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

One off loans no. Continual subsidising of otherwise loss making business which are unable to ever be viable on their own, yes.

Having watched and listened to a number of streamed Welsh Government meetings over the past 2-3 years where the airport has either been the subject or has featured, I became aware that some Members of the Senedd were coming around to the view that the airport might well be loss-making for the foreseeable future and that might be a price that has to be paid by the tax payers.

That feeling seemed to be growing before the pandemic hit the world which has obviously made things much worse for CWL and for all airports.

 

[aviatorconcorde]

Depends on the value that people put on it. To me it's a strategic asset to invest in and continue to invest in like the railways. Hopefully it'll break even eventually.
As for a private owner I'm not sure the government will risk having to buy it again.

I don’t think it’s very strategic at all. It’s an airport for outbound tourism only now.
I don’t think it will ever make a profit and has become a massive black hole for the tax payer. not good when we have a bad NHS here already.

We have tried for years to make Cardiff work but sadly, it cannot go on this way burning through heaps of public cash.

 

[Jerry]

I don’t think it’s very strategic at all. It’s an airport for outbound tourism only now.
I don’t think it will ever make a profit and has become a massive black hole for the tax payer. not good when we have a bad NHS here already.

We have tried for years to make Cardiff work but sadly, it cannot go on this way burning through heaps of public cash.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree as i genuinely don't think Wales can claim to be a country let alone promote itself properly without an airport and as for it being outbound well that's largely down to the loss of Flybe and the pandemic but pre pandemic 20% of the passengers were inbound tourists or business people and as for the old spend it on the NHS argument, governments just don't spend money on health, they spend it on a lot of things including transport infrastructure which the airport comes under.
Personally i do think that the airport is in a good position to recover once flying begins again.

 

[geoff]

Aviatorconcorde I appreciate what you are saying, but all airports have lost huge amounts of money in the last year, but please give a thought for the several hundred thousand of us who live to the west of the airport, and who have no wish to drive past our local airport and travel 40 miles further afield to catch a plane three hours later. As you live in South East Wales it is probably just as easy for you to travel from BRS.

 

[aviatorconcorde]

Aviatorconcorde I appreciate what you are saying, but all airports have lost huge amounts of money in the last year, but please give a thought for the several hundred thousand of us who live to the west of the airport, and who have no wish to drive past our local airport and travel 40 miles further afield to catch a plane three hours later. As you live in South East Wales it is probably just as easy for you to travel from BRS.

I also live West of Cardiff Airport, Bristol is one hour 30 minutes for me, Cardiff 25 minutes. I fail to see where the airport is going anymore, ask me 2 years ago with Qatar and flybe in full flow I would of had a different opinion. It seems now though, Cardiff is becoming an outbound tourism airport only. It is not an efficient use of public money to keep the airport running for some TUI and Wizz flights which i’m sorry to say, can be accessed from BRS.

 

[Jerry]

I also live West of Cardiff Airport, Bristol is one hour 30 minutes for me, Cardiff 25 minutes. I fail to see where the airport is going anymore, ask me 2 years ago with Qatar and flybe in full flow I would of had a different opinion. It seems now though, Cardiff is becoming an outbound tourism airport only. It is not an efficient use of public money to keep the airport running for some TUI and Wizz flights which i’m sorry to say, can be accessed from BRS.

But surely you have to take into account that in the last 2 years there's been events out of the airports and governments control? Thomas Cook collapsed but has essentially been replaced by Wizz, Flybe collapsed and the airport started to recover some of that lost capacity with Loganair and then the pandemic hit leading to the loss of Loganair and Qatar Airways and the shut down of the airport massively effecting the income of the airport. All of that has lead to the owner, the Welsh government, investing to save it's asset from collapse. Once travel resumes then the airport can get on with the task of rebuilding.
I think what the pandemic does show is that the airport business needs to carry on diversifying so it has less reliance on the passenger side of the business.

 

[aviatorconcorde]

But surely you have to take into account that in the last 2 years there's been events out of the airports and governments control? Thomas Cook collapsed but has essentially been replaced by Wizz, Flybe collapsed and the airport started to recover some of that lost capacity with Loganair and then the pandemic hit leading to the loss of Loganair and Qatar Airways and the shut down of the airport massively effecting the income of the airport. All of that has lead to the owner, the Welsh government, investing to save it's asset from collapse. Once travel resumes then the airport can get on with the task of rebuilding.
I think what the pandemic does show is that the airport business needs to carry on diversifying so it has less reliance on the passenger side of the business.

the welsh government had to subsidise flybe. Covid is not the airports fault, but It’s clear the airport is always going to be dependent on government support in multiple different ways now more than ever. It’s not an effective use of public capital. I can’t see it ever getting back to 2007 passenger high’s and a decision should be made on if the public can keep subsidising an airport a lot of wales don’t use.

 

[Jerry]

the welsh government had to subsidise flybe. Covid is not the airports fault, but It’s clear the airport is always going to be dependent on government support in multiple different ways now more than ever. It’s not an effective use of public capital. I can’t see it ever getting back to 2007 passenger high’s and a decision should be made on if the public can keep subsidising an airport a lot of wales don’t use.

As far as I know the Welsh government never gave Flybe a penny. The deal was between the airport company and Flybe. The government did have a marketing deal with Qatar Airways.
The reality is that route subsidy happens especially for airports like Cardiff that'll always be at a disadvantage compared to bigger airports. If you look at the Flybe deal what did it bring to the airport and Wales? 2 eventually 3 based aircraft multiple daily flights to Edinburgh Dublin and Belfast daily daily flights to Paris, multiple weekly flights to Germany and Italy not only to provide business links to these European countries but inbound links for them to access Wales whether for business or tourism.
With the grant they've received it'll be interesting to see if some of it will be put aside for route development to regain some of the lost links to Scotland, Ireland, France and Italy.

 

[aviatorconcorde]

The airports money is the tax payers money. So in effect the tax payer funded flybe. I don’t see how some of the £150 million that’s disappeared into cardiff airport didn’t end up at flybe.
Ditto Qatar, more money lost there.

an actual business would of been shut down by now and we must question if Cardiff airport is viable. Welsh government in recent years have squandered a lot of money on failed projects, their track record is awful.

 

[Jerry]

The airports money is the tax payers money. So in effect the tax payer funded flybe. I don’t see how some of the £150 million that’s disappeared into cardiff airport didn’t end up at flybe.
Ditto Qatar, more money lost there.

an actual business would of been shut down by now and we must question if Cardiff airport is viable. Welsh government in recent years have squandered a lot of money on failed projects, their track record is awful.

At the moment it's either that or shut it down. And also generally how can an airport the size of Cardiff expect to attract airline's especially for routes like Doha unless there is some sort of incentive whether through marketing subsidies, commercial subsidies in waiving of fees or straight up cash subsidy?
As for the Welsh government wasting money on projects show me a government that doesn't no matter what party is at the helm?
Let's face it if the Welsh government didn't invest in Cardiff airport people would complain just as much. There's just simply no way any Welsh government no matter what party was in charge can let Wales only international airport fail whether in government hand's or private hand's it's just not politically practical.

 

[fly4gigs]

Bit obvious that Wales should have an airport.

 

[Jerry]

Bit obvious that Wales should have an airport.

Sadly some don't think it should have one.

 

[Seasider]

You can imagine the slogan "come and invest in Wales" followed by "You will have to fly via England"

It is economic suicide for the government to let the only airport close down.