Cardiff Airport - General Thread

[Em0866]

I wasn't thinking of Vueling, but now you mention it...so that brings it to 3 in my own head

 

[jfy1999]

Perhaps Norwegian are interested. Both they and Vueling have great potential to expand further in the UK. A link to Scandinavia might be good for Cardiff :smile:

 

[Em0866]

And that was my third thought. Of course all of these could be wrong as we are all just speculating. Time will tell though

 

[TheLocalYokel]

I believe that Ryanair will increase their presence at CWL, and if APD is devolved to Wales and abolished or reduced to a nil rate then it's as certain as anything can be in the aviation world that FR will expand significantly at the airport - I suspect they will increase their offering to a degree even if APD is not devolved.

Ryanair would undoubtedly be looking at sun routes and I think there is enough summer sun potential in the CWL catchment for them to operate alongside Vueling to the Costas. Ryanair would also very likely step up their Canary presence.

Eastern Europe might also see the light of day.

Obviously Norwegian could be lurking but I can't see them coming in as a major contributor. Vueling of course might expand as well, but a major Ryanair expansion alongside a substantially increased Vueling presence might very well not be sustainable.

Some of us have been saying for a number of years that Flybe is the best fit for CWL because of the size of its aircraft, although the E 195 might be too big for some of its existing routes. Had Flybe based two E 175s instead of two E 195s at the airport then both the loads and load factors on most of the routes it now flies would be very good, excellent in one or two cases. As always there remains the caveat that yield is the thing that matters, not load size.

That is my main concern with the usual low-cost airlines. Typically their aircraft have between 150 and 190 seats and, apart from the sun routes and possibly Eastern Europe, I do wonder if they would not be too big for CWL.

I admit that loads to the likes of Munich and Milan are considerably higher than I anticipated but they would still only amount to 30-50% load factors on a 180-seat or 189-seat aircraft.

CWL has always struggled to sustain most city/business routes that have been attempted in the past because its core catchment is not massive. Short of miraculously transforming the size of the business sector in South Wales almost overnight, if it wants to greatly increase its passenger numbers on this type of route the airport will have to either tempt many more overseas travellers to fly into Wales and at the same time somehow increase the numbers living in neighbouring English regions (the West Country and South Midlands being the obvious target areas) who use CWL.

Owners and senior management have recognised this for many, many years but so far have failed to make any sort of meaningful headway.

 

[Em0866]

It just occurred to me, the words being used was that an airline had approached them..or something like that. My thought is, as has been said previously, that the airport is in constant dialogue with airlines and I wonder if this was a bit of spin from Roger Lewis during the Committee meeting. Maybe playing the politicians at their own game? Just a thought.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

I'd be very surprised if CWL hasn't been in proactive contact with every airline that the management believes might be interested in the airport. I surmise that airports talk to airlines all the time.

Spencer Birns apparently used to say that when an airline says no they only mean at that time. Things can change in the future.

The chances are that the airline concerned has been contacted by CWL in the past but, if the chairman is to be believed, on this occasion the airline made the running.

A couple of other things interested me in the minutes.

The chairman said he wanted CWL to complement airports such as Bristol and Birmingham. He didn't explain in any detail what he meant by this and none of the politicians asked him to. It could be taken that he accepts that CWL won't attract all 'Welsh' travellers (which to an extent would fly in the face of his desire to recapture many of those who use other airports) or it could mean that he wants to be an alternative for BRS/BHX core catchment travellers.

The other thing was when the was asked about the A 380. He at first said that this aircraft had used CWL although the MD tried to say 747. The conversation then became muddled with the impression given that the 380 might be seen more often at the airport.

It might but only at BAMC. It only appeared in the past for a courtesy visit very lightly loaded. I'm sure that some of the politicians believed from the chairman's remarks that CWL would be able physically to support a 380 in revenue service. Perhaps it might for a quick flip around the bay but no further.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Norwegian have announced a new Rome (FCO) base today - I don't think that the routes it will service have yet been announced.

There might be an outside chance that CWL will feature although I was expecting Vueling to look at Rome if they do intend expanding at CWL.

Rome has been exceptionally popular from BRS for several years with easyJet that has seen consistently very high loads on its daily service through the years.

The CWL chairman did not say a low cost airline had approached them about a base, only that they'd been approached by a low cost airline last week.

 

[Em0866]

This is interesting. Not sure what will come of it, if anything. However I would have thought Vueling would get in there first. Unless, of course, they have ideas. I have a little feeling that there are some possible exciting times as far as routes go in the next months to come. I don't know anything, I just have a feeling.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

I have a little feeling that there are some possible exciting times as far as routes go in the next months to come.

I imagine there is still a lot of the £13 million route development money provided by the WG still to be spent. It's in three annual tranches isn't it with this year the second year?

If that is the case and with the general uplift in aviation fortunes I don't think there is much doubt that more good news for the airport will follow.

 

[Em0866]

I have no idea but it would be interesting to find out and also what destination they have on their hitlist next.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

APD devolution

I've already commented in the BRS thread on news media speculation this week that some form of APD devolution to Wales will be announced in next month's Budget and the reaction of the Bristol Airport senior chief executive.

In the interest of balance I append below the statement of the CWL managing director.

Our priority is always to provide our customers and passengers with the best possible experience, a great choice of affordable routes from their local airport, and of course, to provide significant economic benefit to Wales.

We believe that neighbouring airports should work together and complement one another, growing and strengthening side by side for the greater good of a thriving aviation industry across the UK.

The population of the South West of England is well served by Newquay, Exeter, Southampton and Bristol airports. The people of Wales deserve a national Airport that attracts inbound tourism, serves the capital city and offers a great choice of routes at value for money prices. It should be convenient, without the need to travel significant distances.

APD is a punitive tax that only serves to hinder Cardiff Airport’s ability to continue on this journey of growth and we agree, therefore, that it should be scrapped at the earliest opportunity.

http://www.cardiff-airport.com/news/201 ... nger-duty/

Many people, especially those living in Wales, have also pointed out that BRS currently enjoys what they consider to be a disproportionate number of passengers from and to Wales using that airport. They contend that this is detrimental to the Welsh economy and that APD devolution would help to adjust the imbalance and at the same time give people living in Wales access to a greatly improved facility.

There is much to be said for this argument as there is, in my opinion, for the counter argument that APD devolution would be anti competitive.

 

[Em0866]

There are very valid reasons on both sides of this one. However I think this tax should be abolished whatever part of the UK you live in. I know that is unlikely to happen as it brings in extra revenue for the Government. Similar issues here with Scotland and the the airport in Newcastle.

Of course CWL and BRS are both businesses so it is no big surprise that BRS has come out with this. If, and I do mean if, APD will be devolved to the Welsh Government/National Assembly, then it would probably be only for intercontinental flights (US). However these decisions (if indeed there will be a statement made in the Budget next month) is something out of control of us lesser beings. Politicians will do what they want if it suits them. We will find out next month if it was worth BRS making a such a fuss. For what it's worth I don't think there will be such an announcement in the Budget next month and it'll be a fuss over nothing.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

The draft Wales Bill that formally sets out those powers that will be transferred to the Wales Assembly Government is to be redrawn. This will mean a delay before the Bill can become an Act of Parliament and it is not likely to be presented in its revised form until later this year, possibly after the EU referendum.

There has been much criticism from many sections of political, business, legal and academic opinion that the Bill as currently structured could have the opposite effect to that intended and reduce the powers of the Assembly. There is also a fear that it is not tightly drawn and is open to challenge in the European Court of Justice.

Devolution of APD was not one of the powers listed in the current Bill and there is speculation that the Chancellor will announce such a move in this month's Budget.

Given that the Wales Bill as a whole is to be overhauled it may now be that there will be no announcement in the Budget but that APD devolution will be considered when the Bill is redrafted.

 

[Em0866]

There has been some speculation about the budget later this month and as to whether the devolution of APD (at least in part) would be announced. I think that, as I've said before, BRS are getting their knickers in a knot and they seem to think that ALL of ADP will be devolved. Personally, in my honest opinion, it is extremely unlikely that ALL of APD will be devolved to Wales...certainly for flights within Europe and the usual flights will remain with Westminster. Of course we will have to wait and see what happens in a couple of weeks.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Certainly since Christmas the emphasis from Assembly politicians and in the local press has been on long haul devolution as recommended by the Silk Commission. This may be linked with a report (in one of the Sunday 'heavies' just before Christmas) that APD devolution talks had broken down. That may (if true) have referred to all APD (as opposed to long haul only).

Now that the Wales Bill is to be redrafted it may well be that a completely new look will be taken at the APD question and all APD could therefore be back on the table. If, as has been hinted at in the press in the last 24 hours, more powers are to be devolved in the new Bill then it seems logical that APD might be one of the powers being looked at again. If so it is unlikely in my view that an announcement will be made in the Budget other than perhaps a statement along the lines that it is being considered for inclusion in the new Bill.

I think that the BRS owners and management, as well as West Country politicians and business, believe at the moment that only long haul APD is likely to be devolved in the first instance, but they regard the argument as specious that because BRS currently has no long haul routes devolution of long haul APD only would not affect that airport. Their contention is that it would almost certainly block any chance of their getting long haul routes in the future, as well of course as having an effect on long haul travel via hubs which also attract the long haul APD rate.

It will be fascinating to see what the Westminster government does to keep its promise that no airport would be disadvantaged by APD being devolved to Wales and Scotland. If the EU referendum results in a vote to leave the EU then the UK will not be bound by the EU rules that govern much of airport competition and could, for example, vary APD rates around England, something that currently appears to be illegal under EU regulations.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

APD Devolution

I see there is now a petition circulating on the internet seeking support for APD devolution to the Wales Assembly Government. The petition is reported to have had a strong start in terms of signatories.

If today's football - Bristol City 0 Cardiff City 2 - is an omen the petition has a good chance of seeing its aims succeed.

 

[User001]

I've seen the petition as it appeared in my inbox.

I'm genuinely in 2 minds wether to sign it.

On one hand, I want a lower APD for ALL of the U.K., not just small select parts. Depending on how it is administered, I don't think it offers a fair parity for either the rest of the U.K, or even North Wales, as those in the North are highly unlikely to travel to South Wales for a flight to Europe (cost and time). Therefore this would be the taxpayers of the north subsidising cheaper flights for the south,

The only way this could be fairly administered is that the devolved APD works on either originating postcode, or hotel postcode for inbound tourism. This would then mean all of Wales gets reduced APD regardless of airport used and then could benefit the periphery airports of Bristol, Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool. Obviously London could benefit too, but, you can't win them all.

But, on the other hand, if enough signed in Wales, it could set a precedent for reduced APD across the UK. It's already been scrapped for under 16's, so, the government are obviously open to negotiation.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

APD Devolution

The snag with that rather ingenious suggestion is that the Wales Assembly Government (WAG) will have its Westminster grant reduced by the amount that it collects in APD, or could collect in APD if it maintained parity with the current UK rates. The WAG has already said it would reduce APD to nil if it gets the power so would not in any way be interested in effectively subsidising English airports if some 'Welsh' travellers chose to use neighbouring airports outside the Principality. It would almost certainly be illegal anyway - see below.

As I'm sure you are aware, last year the Westminster government suggested three alternatives for consideration as a way to prevent English airports being disadvantaged when APD powers are devolved to the other constituent countries of the UK.

1. Aid to regional airports from the state, but this fairly limited option would only apply to airports with a throughput of under 3 mppa and exceptionally to those under 5 mppa.

2. Devolving APD powers to local authorities or groups of local authorities.This option would see powers over APD devolved fully or partially to local authorities or Combined Authorities (including mayoral city-regions) within England. However, such authorities must be institutionally, procedurally and economically autonomous. In other words central government will have handed over completely the responsibility for APD and the authorities must also have been given the status necessary under EU rules for devolved APD. There is a half way house where only some APD is devolved (say long haul which is what some think may happen with Wales) but again the authority, as with the WAG, would see its central government grant reduced by the amount of APD it raises or could have raised it it had not chosen to reduce its own APD rate.

In practice, probably only the Manchester Metro region, and possibly the Birmingham/West Midlands and Leeds/West Yorkshire regions would have the population size to be able to consider this option if offered by Westminster.

3.Varying APD rates within England but with the Westminster government still setting them. As it's not possible for a state to vary tax rates within its border in a way that is more favourable to individual regions within that state, this approach seems unlikely to succeed. However, it has been suggested that setting APD rates within a state according to airport congestion criteria might comply with the EU rules on this subject. The Westminster government was going to seek the view of the European Commission on this. I don't know if they ever did. If they did and the EC approved the idea the European Court of Justice could always intervene if petitioned by someone who felt they were being disadvantaged. Furthermore, the Westminster government is not convinced that it would lead to an equitable situation anyway.

In a nutshell the quasi federal approach to the UK that has been adopted by not only the current government has led to one almighty mess and not just with APD

Of course, if the UK votes to leave the EU then the EU rules quoted above will no longer apply and the idea of APD by post code could then be considered.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

APD Devolution

Two websites supporting Welsh aviation have joined together to push the case for APD to be devolved to Wales.

No-one in my opinion should have a problem with that as these web sites are standing up for what they believe in.

However, a couple of comments made in support of the campaign puzzle me.

They say, The APD4Wales campaign is designed to showcase the importance and benefits of devolving Air Passenger Duty to the economy and tourism of not just Wales, but also to the South West of England and UK PLC as a whole.

How will devolution benefit the economy and tourism of South West England if APD devolution encourages more flights from Cardiff to the detriment of the likes of BRS and EXT? I suspect they might mean that passengers for/from South West England could use what is hoped would be an improved network at CWL. Yet when the opposite applies with many people travelling to and from Wales via BRS the same people say this is bad for Wales and its economy. So why is it a good thing one way and a bad thing the other?

http://www.aviationwales.com/wales-unit ... -campaign/

A tax on flying from Wales should not be set by an English Government.

http://www.apd4wales.uk

England, unlike Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, hasn't got its own government. English airports will be governed by the UK government so far as APD is concerned. English MPs have no say in Scotland and Northern Ireland APD rates, nor will they if Wales gets the tax devolved. Yet MPs representing Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish constituencies at Westminster will still have an input on purely ENGlish matters, including English APD, despite the current government's rather woolly attempts to bring about English MP-only votes for purely English matters.

In fact, the chancellor of the exchequer could represent a constituency in Wales, Scotland or even Northern Ireland in the future and be responsible for English APD rates. Brown and Darling are recent examples. So to those who are saying it's not fair if Wales doesn't get APD devolution how is it fair that England remains under the control of all the UK's MPs?

I believe that one or two people involved with the websites that are mounting this campaign sometimes lurk on Forums4Airports. Some are still members of F4A but never post these days. If they want to get their message out more widely, and to explain their arguments, perhaps they ought to post on other aviation message boards rather than just on the domestic Welsh ones where they have a captive and committed audience already.

 

[Em0866]

I am just back from a few days away flying from CWL to ALC. This is my first time out of CWL for 8 years. Although I live in Cardiff I have not been able to fly from CWL for this amount of time as destinations I want to fly to have not been served from CWL at the time of year I choose to fly......or they don't fly there at all. I have to say though, I am very impressed with the way the interior has been transformed and how professional, friendly and efficient I found the staff working there, on both outward and return journeys. The decor etc is really warm and informative showing the various activities that can be undertaken in Wales. My only gripe that the tables around the coffee shop on airside were not cleared or cleaned, but then again that is quite common in most airports in the UK. Well done to CWL!