Cardiff Airport - General Thread

[Jerry]

I doubt it'll make a difference but the Senedd has passed a motion calling for the UK government to devolve APD to Wales by 2021.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-politics-parliaments-48786272?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=5d1b7f7170e6370671911e99%26Motion%20on%20Air%20Passenger%20Duty%20passed%262019-07-02T16%3A13%3A38.702Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:7b96034d-0899-4bb0-95df-54b84e3ce3a4&pinned_post_asset_id=5d1b7f7170e6370671911e99&pinned_post_type=share

 

[Jarvo]

No amendments, no objections. Even co submitted by the Welsh Conservatives and supported by UKIP... There can't have been many motions that have passed this smoothly through the Senedd.

 

[Jerry]

It's probably the only thing that all the Senedd agrees on!

 

[Jerry]

NATS have signed a 10 year contract with Cardiff airport to provide ATC and engineering support for Cardiff airport and St Athan.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1148948685474193408

 

[Jerry]

Does anyone know how long Spencer Birns has been at CWL especially in his current role of head of route development?

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Does anyone know how long Spencer Birns has been at CWL especially in his current role of head of route development?

Cardiff Airport - Freedom of Information FOI – CWL

The official Cardiff Airport website for live flight information, news, airport parking, offers, booking flights & holidays.

www.cardiff-airport.com

Pen picture of Spencer Birns at this link (third in the list) that ought to answer your questions.

 

[geoff]

Are congratulations in order for the CEO, as she is now known as Deb Bowen Rees?

 

[Jerry]

Cardiff Airport - Freedom of Information FOI – CWL

The official Cardiff Airport website for live flight information, news, airport parking, offers, booking flights & holidays.

www.cardiff-airport.com

Pen picture of Spencer Birns at this link (third in the list) that ought to answer your questions.

Thanks it was mentioned elsewhere that he'd been there for quite a while I just didn't realise how long.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Are congratulations in order for the CEO, as she is now known as Deb Bowen Rees?

Nothing on the CWL website that I can see re the change of name.

In an airport press release of 10 July she was still Deb Barber but a week later (ie yesterday) in another press release she had become Deb Bowen Rees.

Obviously it's a private matter but given her high profile at the airport some people are bound to wonder if congratulations are in order, although in my youth it was suggested that only the man ought to be congratulated for finding such a wonderful bride, whereas good wishes to the woman might imply that she'd found someone at last.

That's probably old-fashioned tat and both partners are equally worthy of congratulation.

I don't know her personally but her work as CWL MD then CEO has been outstanding from where I sit looking across the estuary - well almost looking across because I'm a few miles away from the water.

 

[Jerry]

Cardiff Airport: Millions wasted on vanity project, says Tory AM Darren Millar.

Cardiff Airport: Millions wasted on vanity project, says Tory AM

A Conservative AM says it must start generating cash or be sold by the Welsh Government.

www.bbc.co.uk

Is it? I think this article is an example of the unrealistic expectations that the airport has. People seem to expect it to be up at Birminghams passenger numbers and not Southends.

 

[Jerry]

There is a Cardiff airport bashing fest on Radio Wales right now.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Cardiff Airport: Millions wasted on vanity project, says Tory AM Darren Millar.

Cardiff Airport: Millions wasted on vanity project, says Tory AM

A Conservative AM says it must start generating cash or be sold by the Welsh Government.

www.bbc.co.uk

Is it? I think this article is an example of the unrealistic expectations that the airport has. People seem to expect it to be up at Birminghams passenger numbers and not Southends.

A party political comment from someone representing a constituency in North Wales where, perhaps unsurprisingly, more local residents struggle to see what CWL can bring to them.

There is a Cardiff airport bashing fest on Radio Wales right now.

My feeling is that this happens with most local airports. It certainly does when Bristol Airport features on a local radio phone-in so, on that basis, if CWL was handling 8 or 9 mppa people would still be ringing up and moaning about not being able to fly anywhere.

 

[Jerry]

A party political comment from someone representing a constituency in North Wales where, perhaps unsurprisingly, more local residents struggle to see what CWL can bring to them.



My feeling is that this happens with most local airports. It certainly does when Bristol Airport features on a local radio phone-in so, on that basis, if CWL was handling 8 or 9 mppa people would still be ringing up and moaning about not being able to fly anywhere.

Some of the comments made do seem to baffle me but I do think that many have to big an expectation of where the airport should be. I was talking online yesterday on Facebook and even someone who used to be CWL management quite a while ago thinks CWL should be as an airport drawing in passengers from a much larger area than it should and should be doing much better than it is.
In the article there was a comparison to Southend. If I remember correctly that airport is owned by the local authority and leased to Stobarts who have invested millions into it and of course has recently attracted a Ryanair base. Maybe a future model for CWL?

I do think that no matter what CWL achieves in many welsh people's minds it'll always be a failure because it's not Bristol or Birmingham or Heathrow and it's never been able to attract Easyjet but if Wales is to progress as a country it needs an airport that it has to invest in for the future.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Some of the comments made do seem to baffle me but I do think that many have to big an expectation of where the airport should be. I was talking online yesterday on Facebook and even someone who used to be CWL management quite a while ago thinks CWL should be as an airport drawing in passengers from a much larger area than it should and should be doing much better than it is.
In the article there was a comparison to Southend. If I remember correctly that airport is owned by the local authority and leased to Stobarts who have invested millions into it and of course has recently attracted a Ryanair base. Maybe a future model for CWL?

I do think that no matter what CWL achieves in many welsh people's minds it'll always be a failure because it's not Bristol or Birmingham or Heathrow and it's never been able to attract Easyjet but if Wales is to progress as a country it needs an airport that it has to invest in for the future.

SEN is probably a bit different from CWL in that it is a peripheral London Airport, but the same could be said for SOU I suppose and that's struggling. Interestingly, both have railway stations which have produced opposite results.

Checking SEN's history it seems that Southend Borough Council sold the airport to Regional Airports Ltd in 1993 that in turn sold it to the Stobart Group in 2008 for £21 million.

Drawing in more passengers from a much wider area has been an aim for many years and the current master plan published over a decade ago highlights that intention. Realistically that means passengers from the east of the airport for the most part, particularly from neighbouring parts of England. In the BBC article a professor at Cardiff Met University emphasises the need to look east and believes the WG's decision not to proceed with an M4 relief road is 'disastrous' for the airport. It's probably not a help but whether it's as bad as the good professor believes must be debatable.

I remember that when the Qatar route was announced many with an interest in the subject believed it to be a watershed for the airport and would lead to other airlines joining in. Qatar has perhaps grown slightly more slowly than might have been expected or hoped, and new airlines are yet to materialise, although existing airlines (TUI, TCX and FR) have all expanded their operations in the past year or two.

What is likely to help CWL, and other regional airports, is the inability of LHR to expand if that becomes the case, and CWL would also gain if BRS is permanently restricted to 10 mppa, which might become the case.

 

[Jerry]

I remember that when the Qatar route was announced many with an interest in the subject believed it to be a watershed for the airport and would lead to other airlines joining in. Qatar has perhaps grown slightly more slowly than might have been expected or hoped, and new airlines are yet to materialise, although existing airlines (TUI, TCX and FR) have all expanded their operations in the past year or two.

It's been what roughly 2 years since the route was announced and 1 since it started. Any airlines attracted by that route may take 2 to 3 years to actually start up but there is also going to be a limited number airlines that will be attracted to CWL in the first place.
I do think CWL needs to judged by where it is in 2 to 3 to 4 years time after 10 years of WG ownership. Hopefully airlines like Ryanair and TUI will continue to expand their operations and KLM will be all E190 and maybe 4 daily. I do think though that CWL's chance of another long haul route is slim despite what many want.

What is likely to help CWL, and other regional airports, is the inability of LHR to expand if that becomes the case, and CWL would also gain if BRS is permanently restricted to 10 mppa, which might become the case.

Hopefully from CWL's point of view if BRS does get stuck at 10 million that would help to persuade Ryanair to base which would be a good boost, i don't think it will persuade Easyjet though to look at CWL and as for Heathrow i'm not sure the lack of 3rd runway would persuade many of the airlines there to look at CWL.

 

[Jerry]

A comment elsewhere today made me think about future investors or buyers for CWL. The Welsh government previously stated that they want to attract an investor or investors into the airport but with all the political stuff around the airport and the airport being government owned would that put off any potential investment in the future?
Also the way that the airport has grown its passenger numbers specifically the deal with Flybe in that they may consider the numbers 'bought' would that also put off any potential investment in the future?

 

[Jarvo]

The political issues with the airport seem to be mainly from minority opposition Tory AMs spouting off to media outlets. Both Labour and Plaid are seemingly pro CWL. So on a grand scale, no I don't think much of the political wrangling will be looked at from outside wales. There have been some less than positive write ups in UK wide papers like The Times though.
The problem with having government ownership of an airport such as Cardiff is that the government will be scrutinized over every penny spent on the airport, which means where as airports such as Bristol etc can have large scale investments from their owners, expecting returns over many years, the Welsh Gov ultimately has much more pressing uses of the money in the immediate term.
So a private investor would have to be willing to agree to some strange terms in that they would hold a minority (50%-1) share in the airport and also be expected to provide the bulk of any money invested into the airport.
What a private investor may see however, is the fact that part government ownership means there will likely be support for expansion as well as government funded infrastructure projects beyond the airport's responsibility that will increase the value of the asset. The potential £100m link road from the M4 down through Pendoylan is a prime example of this.

If an investor was looking for long term returns, they would pretty much definitely have to build a new terminal if they wanted to see Cardiff go into any substantial profit. There's no way the airport is going to have the kind of traffic that would allow it to survive on landing fees alone, so effective commercialization of the passengers going through will be the revenue driver. With the Beer House, Costa and WHSmiths it has improved recently, but in reality there needs to be more, and a new terminal designed to maximize those revenue streams will be essential.

Yes though, I do think the fact that much of the growth seems to be from 'subsidized' (I say subsidized in a rough sense of the word) routes, Cardiff isn't looking great.
At the moment it very much seems a case of Cardiff being seen in most people's perception as a Waitrose airport, where higher cost airlines operate, on far fewer routes with the proximity to home being the luxury. Most seem happy to drive that extra hour or so to go to the Tesco Extra across the Severn, where there are a greater range of products from more well known brands (EasyJet+ Ryanair as opposed to Flybe). A big part of any investment will be advertising in order to challenge this perception locally.

The main potential investors I can think of at the moment are either Legal and General, who seem to be bankrolling nearly every development in Cardiff at the moment, or QIA (Qatari investment authority). The latter of which will definitely take a longer term view on the investment, and potentially see the political sway it would give as a helping factor in any decision.

 

[Jerry]

The political opposition although from a minority does seem to get a lot of coverage though. Last week for instance is an example of that. One AMs comments and up not just on the radio and local TV but in the independent as well with the veritable Simon Calder having his say which does bring in a lot of negative pr for the airport.

I do wonder if any potential investor would want the WG to go guarantor on any money that they invest for a new terminal or the WG to put up part of it. Though politicallly I don't think the WG could get away with funding the whole thing unless they decided to do a much cheaper new terminal build.
The supermarket analogy is quite apt but I think the airport is more a little Waitrose! The airport though has been able to grow their Ryanair offering so fingers crossed that'll continue and the airport will keep growing.

Legal and general are behind plans for the new business park next to the airport so maybe they might be interested in the airport itself!

 

[TheLocalYokel]

When the news broke just before Christmas 2012 that the Welsh Government was in advanced talks to purchase Cardiff Airport, Carwyn Jones the then FM appeared on Radio Wales the following day to speak of his hopes and wishes for the airport’s future. He told a somewhat bemused interviewer that the government would be seeking a private sector partner that would share in profits but any losses would be borne by that partner.

Perhaps unsurprisingly the government seemed unable to find such a partner and within a couple of years (perhaps earlier) the policy had changed to one of still looking for a private sector partner in the future but that the government would retain a majority holding. Local news media commentators seem to believe that serious overtures to the private sector will be made when the government is looking to build a new terminal, perhaps when 3 mppa is in sharp focus.

Bristol Airport went the other way with the private sector. The then Labour-dominated city council was politically averse to selling the airport but eventually accepted that their wholly-owned airport company would never be able to raise the finance for the new terminal that was needed. They sold a majority stake (51%) to First Group in 1997 and that enabled a new terminal, new control tower and diversion of the A38 to go ahead. Four years later the city council divested itself of any interest in the airport.

If the government went along that route it might entice the private sector more readily as it would be calling the tune and have control of the investment that it would be expected to fund.

As to who a private sector partner might be, whether majority or minority shareholder, I have no idea. Ontario Teachers’ Pension Plan?

Describing CWL as a Waitrose airport is novel. Isn’t Waitrose a supposedly ‘upmarket’ supermarket? Does that also apply to the airlines at CWL?

Another point, and it's been mentioned on F4A before, is that a private sector airport's raison d'etre is to be profitable for its shareholders. It's unlikely that private sector shareholders would be willing to wait year after year owning a loss-making airport unless there were clear signs that in the foreseeable future it would lead to a substantial turnaround in the airport's fortunes. A wholly government-owned airport such as CWL would clearly want its airport company to be profitable as quickly as possible, but such ownership also has another goal which is to provide an airport that will enhance the overall economy of the country. A private sector airport is not particularly bothered with that. Obviously an improving economy in the airport's region ought to be a positive for the aiport's performance, but the private sector owners would not have that as a primary object of ownership; it would be an agreeable by-product of a growing airport.

 

[Jerry]

Local news media commentators seem to believe that serious overtures to the private sector will be made when the government is looking to build a new terminal, perhaps when 3 mppa is in sharp focus

The only problem I see with waiting until 3 million passengers a year is that I believe it could take a very long time for that to happen. It would require either a lot of airlines operating to the airport like Newcastle has or 1/2 airlines having a massive commitment to the airport like Leeds has with Jet2 and Ryanair. Although the terminal is functional I do think CWL needs a new terminal in the next 10 years at least.