Cardiff Airport - General Thread

[aviatorconcorde]

With the T5 running at a 200k+ loss, would there be any possibility of the Welsh gov coming to some sort of agreement with Megabus?
Stagecoach, who own Megabus, run the BRS flyer and that has been an unmitigated success.
London Victoria to Cardiff runs regularly, via Bristol, UWE frenchay, Cardiff university and Cardiff... a 15 mile extension to that route would link the airport with some of its most crucial markets as well as London itself.
The Welsh Gov owns the busses for the T5, which could be deployed elsewhere on Traws cymru's cross country routes.
The Megabus website is a force in of itself and at least two or three full time jobs in a coach seat booking stand in arrivals could also be created.

I only think of this because of my recent visit on a trip to Edinburgh using the T5 to Cardiff. Every time I've used the service there seems to be some sort of embarrassment or issue. I've seen drivers talking to tourists who can't speak English by just raising their voices and repeating themselves slowly in something fresh out of a dodgy 70's comedy. Nearly every time, my last visit included, the bus pulls up with a line of passengers waiting... And the driver just gets out, lights up a cigarette and leaves the queue standing blowing smoke across the waiting passengers.

There is zero logic behind a rail link due to the cost involved and the lack of demand, but a national brand like Megabus would bring the standard of service that doesn't embarrass the airport or country to arriving passengers as well as a far better standard of connectivity and the ability of passengers to pre-book etc.

How much would the Welsh gov likely have to invest in something like this and would there likely even be a critical mass of passengers to make it possible, hourly or otherwise?

thanks for sharing. How Embarrassing.

Megabus or someone similar would be good to help tidy thinks up, but i think the main problem is the lack of passenger demand.

the airport train line is also very poor (but better than nothing). TFW run their poorest and oldest trains on that service.

 

[Jarvo]

the airport train line is also very poor (but better than nothing). TFW run their poorest and oldest trains on that service.

I've also used that service and the bus used to link Rhoose station to the airport is grim. From sticky stains across the floor to the vibration and noise from the engine making it feel like it may explode at any moment, it really doesn't paint the picture of going to an airport in an economy like the UK.

 

[Foxlimayankee]

Do you mean the T9?

I've always thought public transport to the Airport is very disjointed.
The Rail link takes you to/from a poorly equipped open air train station in Rhoose, from a poor quality and low frequency railway. It has been suggested that the link may be more useful from Barry station, which wouldn't add too much to journey times. The issue with the rail link however is it could mean a number of changes. Unless you're coming from the Valleys origins that go through to Bridgend, it'll involve a change in Cardiff (or Bridgend), then another change on to the bus at either Rhoose, or potentially Barry. There are a lot more trains (from the East) going to Barry than there are to Rhoose.

The T9 however is probably a better functional setup for what CWL needs in comparison to other Airport. It's a regular service and serves the City Centre and the Bay and is a fairly direct route. The issue I think, as already suggested, is simply demand. CWL doesn't have the volume of city routes that are likely to attract enough people needing to use the bus link. Most of it's customers are holiday makers which are more likely to get a private transfer or drive, especially if it's an early flight or late arrival.

Whilst the Megabus would be great, I can't see it benefiting Megabus themselves much so would likely come at quite a cost. The other issue is frequency. As far as I know Megabus don't offer the kind of frequency in to Cardiff that would allow a minimum 30 min frequency to the Airport. Also you'd be adding on at least an hour maybe an hour and half by going to the Airport and allowing for driver breaks. Logistically I don't know how that would work.

What's needed is better links to the West, to Swansea, Carmarthen and further West, even Aberystwyth. There is the T1C that runs from Aberystwyth through Carmarthen and Port Talbot and on to Cardiff. Although it would add to journey times it would be great to see this bus linked to CWL.

I do also think the Welsh Govt have run this as a vanity project to show CWL has a bus link that runs continuously for most of the day at 20 or 30 min frequencies, when there is likely no flights. A more robust timetable should be created which would reduce frequency and cost. For example the last departure tomorrow is BE EDI at 2035 with last arrivals being:
BE EDI 2005
KL AMS 2140
BE DUB 2210

Yet there are twelve buses between 2010 and 2350 running from CWL to Cardiff. A more fitting timetable, that allows for delays should be drawn up. It's no wonder the T9 has the nickname "Ghost bus"

 

[Jerry]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1202894167527088129

 

[Jarvo]

Boeing 737, 787
Airbus A320
Embraer 190, 175
Jetstream 41
Bombardier dash 8
Tomorrow's scheduled passenger aircraft. It must be said; for the winter season at a regional airport, there's definitely variety at CWL.

 

[Jerry]

Boeing 737, 787
Airbus A320
Embraer 190, 175
Jetstream 41
Bombardier dash 8
Tomorrow's scheduled passenger aircraft. It must be said; for the winter season at a regional airport, there's definitely variety at CWL.

That is one thing that people can't complain about is the aircraft variety not just from the aiport itslef but also from BAMC and increasingly Global Trek as well civilian traffic and military.

 

[mathers_wales_uk]

Not many places where you can get a Dreamliner followed by a PA28.

hope the variety continues.

 

[Jerry]

Cardiff Airport - Freedom of Information FOI – CWL

The official Cardiff Airport website for live flight information, news, airport parking, offers, booking flights & holidays.

www.cardiff-airport.com

 

[TheLocalYokel]

With the T5 running at a 200k+ loss, would there be any possibility of the Welsh gov coming to some sort of agreement with Megabus?
Stagecoach, who own Megabus, run the BRS flyer and that has been an unmitigated success.

The Bristol Airport Flyer (service A1) is not operated by Megabus, or by its parent, Stagecoach - never has been. It's actually an airport-run service that is operated for them under contract by First West of England with a fleet of 12 liveried double-deckers. There is a similar Weston-super-Mare Flyer (A3) with liveried single-deckers.

In addition First West of England runs its own commercial A2 liveried double-decker service from the airport to Bristol city centre that doesn't call at Temple Meads or the bus station unlike the A1.

Stagecoach does appear at BRS in the form of the South West Falcon that links BRS with the further South West of England as far as Plymouth. There are also dedicated regular bus or coach services to Bath and Cardiff/Newpoert.

BRS began its Flyer service (the one now called the A1) over 20 years ago and in the eary years it was almost certainly loss-making but the airport company persisted and stood the loss. When the Cardiff-CWL shuttle bus began the WG funded it directly and not out of its airport company budget which led to some complaints, given that some bus services in the country were being reduced or axed because of subsidy cutbacks.

 

[Jerry]

Summer 2020 from Cardiff Airport airlines, routes, frequencies and days operated.
KLM
Amsterdam 20 weekly 3 daily except on Sunday when it's 2 daily.
Qatar Airways
Doha 7 weekly 1 daily flight.
Flybe
Edinburgh 18 weekly 3 daily Monday to Friday, 1 daily on Saturdays, 2 daily Sunday.
Dublin 18 weekly 3 daily Monday to Friday, 1 daily on Saturdays, 2 daily Sunday.
Belfast City 7 weekly 1 daily flight
Paris CDG 7 weekly 1 daily flight
Jersey 5 weekly Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday.
Cork 3 weekly Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday.
Loganair
Glasgow 8 weekly daily Monday to Thursday, 2 daily Friday and Sunday, no flight on Saturday.
Eastern Airways (Flybe Franchise)
Anglesey 10 weekly 2 daily Monday to Friday no flights on the weekend.
Aberdeen 6 weekly does not operate on Saturdays.
Newcastle 6 weekly does not operate on Saturdays.
BH Air
Burgas 1 weekly Sunday
Vueling
Malaga 4 weekly Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays.
Mallorca 3 weekly Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays.
Alicante 6 weekly no flight on Fridays.
Ryanair
Barcelona 2 weekly Tuesday and Saturday.
Faro 2 weekly Monday and Friday.
Malta 2 weekly Wednesday and Sunday.
Malaga 3 weekly Monday, Wednesday and Friday but only for June, July and August.
TUI
PMI 6 weekly Sunday, Monday, 2 daily on Tuesday, Friday and Saturday
Menorca 2 weekly Monday and Friday
Ibiza 3 weekly Wednesday, Friday and Saturday
Alicante 2 weekly Tuesday and Saturday
Malaga 2 weekly Sunday and Wednesday
Lanzarote 2 weekly Sunday and Thursday
Tenerife 3 weekly Monday, Tuesday and Friday
Reus 1 weekly Tuesday
Faro 1 weekly Thursday
Hurghada 1 weekly Monday
Enfidha 1 weekly Friday
Burgas 1 weekly Monday
Gran Canaria 1 weekly Thursday and Saturday
Corfu 2 weekly Monday and Friday
Zante 2 weekly Tuesday and Friday
Rhodes 2 weekly Wednesday and Saturday
Kos 2 weekly Wednesday and Saturday
Kefalonia 1 weekly Tuesday
Heraklion 1 weekly Sunday
Paphos 2 weekly Sunday and Wednesday
Dalaman 3 weekly Monday, Tuesday and Thursday
Antalya 2 weekly Sunday and Thursday
Dubrovnik 1 weekly Thursday
Naples 1 weekly Wednesday
Larnaca 1 weekly Sunday

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Thanks for that, Jerry.

There seems to be a lot of scope for increases on all manner of routes: nearly all of TUI's, Vueling's and Ryanair's.

Notable complete absences include such destinatioins as Girona, Fuerteventura and Bodrum.

 

[Jerry]

Thanks for that, Jerry.

There seems to be a lot of scope for increases on all manner of routes: nearly all of TUI's, Vueling's and Ryanair's.

Notable complete absences include such destinatioins as Girona, Fuerteventura and Bodrum.

It's been a bit frustrating watching airlines replace the Thomas Cook capacity at other airports and Cardiff get virtually nothing. I was hoping Ryanair/Lauda would launch PMI to claw some of it back but they seem more interested in elsewhere same with TUI. I'd be surprised if there was another new route for winter so I guess we'll have to see what 2021 brings.
As for Girona, Bodrum and Fuenteventura at the moment I don't see them ever returning sadly.

 

[Jerry]

The sad thing is that 2019 has one of the airports best years while being of it's worst.

 

[geoff]

I agree with you Jerry, when you see what some of the other airlines have increased their services from other airports to replace Thomas Cook, we appear to be in the wilderness, when it comes to new routes, perhaps it is because South Wales is looked on as a poor region prosperity wise. We can only hope for better in the future. It must be really heart breaking for the staff at the airport, who have worked so hard over the recent years to build up passenger numbers and routes.

 

[Jerry]

perhaps it is because South Wales is looked on as a poor region prosperity wise.

I don't think it's that as otherwise Newcastle which is in an area of similar prosperity to southern and west Wales wouldn't have as many airlines that it does. The problem is Bristol, its too large and too close and effectively crushes a lot of the profit out of Cardiff.
It's only my opinion but I believe that Cardiff should have a TUI style operation of 3 to 4 aircraft, an LCC with 2 to 3 based aircraft and a Flybe style airline with 3 aircraft with hub airlines like KLM and Qatar and a weekly Orlando. And in the winter the TUI should be 1 to 2 aircraft LCC 1 to 2 and Flybe 3.
I'm sure people won't agree with me about that and the airlines certainly don't!

 

[geoff]

Jerry there may come a time in the near future, when BRS will not be allowed to expand any further, which may put CWL in a better position. It was encouraging to see that 18% of the Qatar passengers are from over the border, there may be an opening there for CWL, if they could only get an airline to operate transatlantic services on a scheduled basis, both to the US and Canada.

 

[Jerry]

Jerry there may come a time in the near future, when BRS will not be allowed to expand any further, which may put CWL in a better position. It was encouraging to see that 18% of the Qatar passengers are from over the border, there may be an opening there for CWL, if they could only get an airline to operate transatlantic services on a scheduled basis, both to the US and Canada.

Hopefully Bristol will be capped at 10 million for a significant amount of time and that will hopefully benefit Cardiff with extra flights from TUI and Ryanair and KLM.
The problem with the scheduled USA/Canada flight is obviously the airline's would need to be interested but I think that they would want some sort of incentive from the WG but that the WG would want them to deploy a wide body aircraft rather than a narrow body for cargo uplift reasons and I can't see North American airlines wanting to do that or in the UK Virgin or BA. Ideally a Virgin A330 200 operating 5 weekly New York 1 weekly Orlando and 1 weekly Cancun would be a target for the WG but I just don't see Virgin being interested even if the demand was there screaming for it.

 

[mathers_wales_uk]

The issue here is that passengers are prepared to travel to Bristol. Not only that on many cases they are used to flying from Bristol.

With their own issues due to Boeing 737 Max Tui only had a limited scope to jump in and fill the void left by Thomas Cook.

So knowing that passengers are willing to travel to Bristol from South Wales they have now expanded at Bristol knowing they actually cover the South Wales market too.

There is a Jet2 base in either CWL/BRS/EXT coming however with the issues of initially Monarch and now Thomas Cook it has put this plan on hold. (My personal opinion). I think Jet2 would prefer Bristol because it is busier and can attract passengers from South Wales however they may elect for Cardiff if there are insufficient slots or overnight parking at Bristol.

I think Jet2 offers a great product and believe they could be a airline similar to bmibaby that operated 3 based aircraft however with the holiday packages & 22kg hold baggage would be a huge hit.

Cardiff Airport has been extremely unlucky when every time something looks on the up something happens to rock the boat.

Thomas Cook collapse & change of strategy by Flybe’s new owners & Issues at Ryanair bases are the recent issues.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

The problem is Bristol, its too large and too close and effectively crushes a lot of the profit out of Cardiff.

Does anyone agree with me that if the problem is BRS it's one largely of CWL's own making?

In the later 1980s CWL and BRS were handling broadly the same number of passengers each year. Around that time a government white paper designated airports into categories. CWL was shown as a regional airport (for Wales and South West England) whereas Bristol was listed as a local airport.

BRS also suffered then, and still suffers, from a very constricted site, challenging weather conditions at its high (over 600 feet AMSL) and often mist-laden airfield, with a short and undulating runway that is one of the shortest of any of the top 20 UK passenger airports. It's situated on the 'poor' side of Bristol in terms of the city's economy and is not easy to reach. There is no rail or motorway connectivity and none is likely, and the main road to it has no dual carriageway and leaves one of the most heavily congested cities in the country.

Until 1997 BRS was owned by the Bristol City Council and did not fully privatise until 2001. The city council had little money to invest and through the 60s, 70s and part of the 80s BRS was loss-making with local calls from some for its closure as it was a drain on the city rate payers' purse. When BRS first became part-privatised in 1997 a huge amount of investment was ploughed into infrastructure development including a new terminal, new control tower and diversion of the A38 road to permit Cat 3b ILS.

Since then the infrastructure investment has continued through the various owners to the point where, at today's values, over £400 million has been expended and a lot more is planned, especially if they can get their passenger cap lifted. In contrast CWL's private sector owners invested relatively little during the period in question, with the last one actively running it down. When the WG bought CWL it spent very little money on infrastructure. Because of the state the previous ownership had left the airport the priority was getting in airlines to increase airport footfall to feed the ancillary revenue streams that are so necessary in the modern world of smaller airport business plans, so money was spent furthering that aim.

Admittedly CWL is not easy to reach either but it has a larger site, a longer runway and serves a capital city.

Given BRS's many disadvantages, many of which still exist, the finger must be pointed at those who ran and owned CWL during the time that BRS was allowed to pull away from its Severnside neighbour in passenger-number terms.

People will say that the arrival of GoFly, later bought by easyJet, was the catalyst. That has turned out to be true to an extent, but BRS had already passed 2 mppa with the only low-cost presence being the Ryanair Dublin service which CWL also had then. The CWL owners could have pitched for Go. The airline circulated all airports anonymously via an agent seeking interest in becoming their second base after Stansted. According to the Go CEO, Barbara Cassani, CWL didn't make the short list, that's if its owners/senior management even put their hat in the ring.

With CWL's fewer disadvantages than BRS's, bar one, and its capital city status, future aviation historians will wonder how a capital city airport allowed what was at one time no more than a neighbouring whippersnapper to outsmart and outplay it so comprehensively.

The 'bar one' is certainly significant. It's the size and make-up of the respective catchments but if the CWL owners and management had got ahead of the game in the 80s and early 90s they would have had a product that would have presented a serious challenge to BRS, and nowaday we could even be seeing hundreds of thousand of passengers a year travelling to CWL from the West Country instead of the reverse that now obtains. If that is an exaggeration it's certainly arguable that the two airports would be much closer to each other in terms of services and passenger numbers and a good many more West Country passengers would be using CWL than is now the case; equally, fewer Welsh passengers would be using BRS.

So if BRS is the problem it's only because those with the stewardship of CWL over the past thirty years let it become one.

 

[Red Flyer]

I think your assessment is too simplistic & a little bit disrespectful to management & workforce at BRS. After the report in the 70s Bristol City Council especially Cllr George Maggs refused to accept it & the appointment of the late Great Les Wilson was inspired. His knowledge of the aviation industry was immense & he never let the dogs abuse he got from locals ever get him down!! The arrival of PAT in 87 & then BRY in 91 was not a fluke. It was due to hard work & foresight. After his very untimely death BRS did not rest on their laurels they then appointed more ambitious & forward thinking management which resulted in the arrival of GOE. The forward thinking still continues to the present day. CWL have tried to follow BRS lead but copies are often doomed to failure.