Doncaster Sheffield - General Thread

[pug]

It would appear that Peel are now looking to offload a majority share in Peel Airports to raise £200 million towards a bid for Forthport.

This is a change of tone from the previous announcement that they were looking for a coinvestor for the improvements at LPL. Supposidly VAS are the frontrunner and they make a business out of turning around failing airports. I can only imagine cuts at DSA as a result if losses havent declined. I fully believe that LPL will be the main interest with any potential investor.

 

[White Heather]

I agree.

Any new owner is bound to look at the figures, profits, losses, and consider the likely future of any airport and make their own decision as to what to do about it. Will any new owner invest millions trying to make DSA the busy airport it was promised to be, or will they see reality and decide its location is always going to have a negative impact on the willingness of scheduled airlines to use it, with cuts (or worse) following. Only time will tell.

Existing operators will also be wondering if a new owner will give them an opportunity to demand lower costs, or whether the new owners will seek to reduce losses by increasing costs, which could of course scare airlines off altogether?

It will be an interesting time if this goes ahead.

 

[john2408]

There was a report on this on UK Airport News, i mentioned it as a reference on the DSA site. it has now been deleted, how sad.

In the interests of balance, it was apparently deleted since there was already a similar topic started - Humberside

 

[News Guru]

[textarea]Robin Hood Airport boss to manage Durham Tees Valley too

The boss at Robin Hood Airport has been named as the new director of Durham Tees Valley, the Journal reports. Mike Morton will combine his new role with the running Robin Hood, which he has done since 2008, and is also part of the Peel Airports group. He replaces Kerry Quinn who is leaving Durham Tees Valley for a new job at Cardiff Airport.

He told the newspaper: ‘Nobody can pretend that everything in the garden is rosy for regional airports, but I believe that there are real grounds for optimism at Durham Tees Valley - not least because of the restructuring of the business, led by Kerry Quinn, which has placed us in a strong position to take advantage of future growth opportunities.’

The airport has recently won new scheduled services to Southampton and Dublin and has expanded its summer holiday programme.

Source[/textarea]

 

[News Guru]

[textarea]Canadians buy 65% of Peel Airports

Canadian airports company Vancouver Airport Services announced yesterday that it has reached agreement with the Peel Group to acquire a 65 percent share in Peel Airports Limited, which owns Robin Hood, Durham Tees Valley and Liverpool airports. The Peel Group will retain a 35 percent investment in Peel Airports Limited and a presence on the board.

George Casey, President and CEO of Vancouver Airport Services said: ‘We have a strong track record of investing in and providing value-added management services for airports around the world. We look forward to working with The Peel Group and the stakeholders involved in these airports.’

Peel Group Chairman John Whittaker added: ‘We are delighted to partner with Vancouver Airport Services. Its network of international airports and expertise as a leading airport specialist will increase the success of these growing regional airports. The retention of a significant investment in the venture, together with our associated airport-related property, is in line with our strategy of creating long term partnerships to unlock value from the synergy between our diverse infrastructure, transport and real estate assets.'

Source[/textarea]

 

[News Guru]

[textarea]Successful cruise show at Robin Hood Airport

More than 500 people visited Robin Hood Airport to find out about holidays on the sea. They attended the airport’s fourth annual Cruise Show, held in conjunction with Thomson and First Choice, to find out more about the fly cruise programmes available from the airport.

Visitors were given expert advice from Complete Cruise Solution, Royal Caribbean, Thomson and Island Cruises about itineraries available from the airport to the Mediterranean and the Caribbean, which resulted in 131 booking at the event. They were also able sample the delights of a chocolate fountain, enjoy a glass of champagne or even a free manicure courtesy of Temple Spa.

Jodi Stow, Marketing a Manager at Robin Hood Airport, said: ‘Our fly-cruise programme is growing year on year, and we were delighted by this year’s turnout and interest. The fact that 131 people confirmed a booking on the day is fantastic.'

'We are always looking to add to the locations we reach and the passengers we can attract to the airport. We are delighted to be able to offer cruise goers from South Yorkshire the opportunity to experience cruise holidays directly from their local airport.’

Source[/textarea]

 

[jason1-11]

I didn't know Doncaster was by the sea ha-ha.

 

[pug]

MORE ARE TAKING OFF FROM DONCASTER SHEFFIELD AIRPORT June saw the second consecutive month of rising passenger figures at Doncaster Sheffield Airport.

Bosses announced a 16 percent year-on-year increase in passenger numbers last month, with the figures showing over 109,130 people used the airport during June 2010.

The most popular 5 destinations for holidaymakers flying from Doncaster Sheffield last month include - Palma (Majorca), Alicante (Spain), Dalaman (Turkey), Faro (Portugal) and Katowice (Poland).

Mike Morton, Airport Director said: “This is fantastic news. We are really beginning to see the impact our new routes are having on the number of passengers using Doncaster Sheffield Airport for their travel needs.

“Holidaymakers from across Yorkshire and the Humber, North Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire are realising how much easier it is to fly from their local airport and are looking to use us when planning their trips.

“We are now looking ahead to our winter routes for 2010/11 and should be announcing these in the coming months. Thomson Airways recently announced extra capacity for Summer 2011 which is thanks to strong forward sales so we look forward to seeing more and more passengers starting their journey from Doncaster.

“This is great news and it is very pleasing to see that our figures are rising.”

From airport website.

A good month for DSA, clearly Easyjet taking effect. It would only require a few hundred more to match June 07!

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Travel Trade Gazette (TTG) Airport of the Year Award

The six airports shortlisted for this award are Bournemouth, Bristol, Cardiff, Doncaster-Sheffield, East Midlands and Manchester. The award is voted on by travel agents.

From the performance of most of these airports over the past year it seems a significant criterion is a substantial fall in passenger numbers.

 

[Aviador]

I was in Sheffield city centre yesterday. I noticed several buses with Jet2 adverts notably not showing a departure point but presumably aiming at flights from both LBA and EMA. Not a single sign of the more local Doncaster Sheffield Airport, no airport adverts, no Thomson or Wizz adverts, no sign of an airport serving Sheffield. It is such a shame that they can't make more of an effort promoting the airport and the routes it serves.

 

[backtrack]

I guess Size doesnt always matter then...? I mean yes DSA nice long runway, but it hasnt had much luck in persuading airlines to start up or at least sustain any routes for the local area.

 

[pug]

They had a massive marketing boost when EZY announced they would fly from there, there were adverts on all of the Yorkshire radio stations and im sure DSA and Thomson sponsor the weather on Calender news? I think people know they can fly from there to some places, but it was always going to be a tough job getting people to use DSA over EMA and MAN when they offer much more and are not too much further away.

 

[Seasider]

I agree with Pug on this one. DSA should not have allowed to develop, its only advantage over LBA/HUY was a longer runway that could offer long haul flights. I think it would be interesting to find out how many people from Sheffield use it. It is a hard fight to try and drag the passengers away from MAN/EMA where they have been going for years. You ask the people at LBA how hard it is to drag the passengers away from using MAN.

 

[pug]

Someone from Doncaster posted on the fruit forum that it attracts a large number of passengers from MMEs catchment area, not sure how true it is. I dont think its unreasonable to expect that a substantial number of them have a Sheffield postcode though.

Thing is, DSA missed the boat, i suppose the question is, where is the next boom going to come from? LPL was a pioneer in low-cost airtravel from the regions, yet not long after the lo-cos started establishing themselves at EMA and LBA, so by the time DSA came along its competitiors had a massive head start. Had it opened in the mid to late 90's then i think its reasonable to suggest that things could have been quite different. I suppose there could be a new start up who can find a niche there, they do claim to be in talks with a company about starting flights and that its looking 'promising' so i guess we shall have to wait and see. I cant think of who it might be though, but from what Mike Morton said suggests its a new airline to DSA, could even be a new start up.

I doubt anyone could predict the next boom in airtravel, if there even is one. I suppose there could be low-cost long-haul flights, but with MAN missing the boat with low-cost due to believing it wouldnt work, i suspect they would be more open to the prospect next time around, but it could be something DSA could be part of perhaps? But no matter what is said, low-cost airlines still need a big catchment area and so an airport with critical mass already would be one to get in on that i reckon if/when it happens. Think STN, LTN, MAN/LBA, NCL for such a market.

The biggest annoyance with the whole thing is the way i believe it has affected airtravel in Yorkshire. LBA has done better this last seven years, but is still punching way below its weight and DSA will not get in the way of expansion. HUY and SZD have been the biggest losers thus far. Charter growth at HUY pretty much constant since the runway extention, and perhaps more importantly growth was sustainable (they didnt flood the market with ow-cost airlines) and many will remember that HUY was for a number of years one of the fastest growing airports in the UK! It was certainly well ahead of its contemporaries at BOH, NWI and EXT and not far behind MME (due to the LHR flights) so i dont see why it is unreasonable to suggest that HUY would have had a significant charter operation now had the market not been saturated. Ive said before that SZD could have had a number of important destinations by now had Peel invested in the place, FlyBE and KLM are the obvious one that could have worked from there.

Unfortunately now there are two airports not much more than 30 miles apart, both having catchment area overlap and trying to go for the same airlines and routes. None of the airlines at DSA, except TOM and Wizz, have made routes a success from DSA. New routes come and go but dont seem to stick around long.

With that information i think its quite safe to say thats its true what MAG and LBA said, the region needed more airlines, not more airports, and the current formula is not going to help matters. I hope MAG dont give up on HUY and just concentrate on non-pax flights. It certainly doesnt seem to be in their interests, but even if they did it would have very little benefit for DSA, as their competitors offer far more and their catchment areas overlap significantly and the airlines know this.

 

[User0001]

The biggest annoyance with the whole thing is the way i believe it has affected airtravel in Yorkshire.

Interesting if you look at the CAA data for 2004 and compare to 2009. 2004 was of course the last full year before operations began at DSA in April 2005.

In 2004, LBA and HUY handled 2.3m international passengers. In 2009, LBA,HUY and DSA handled 3.2m, an increase of 39%. Over the same period, the UK maket as a whole (exlcuding HUY, DSA and LBA) grew by just 5%, meaning international air travel from Yorkshire and Humberside grew at nearly 8 times the rate as the rest of the country in the period since DSA opened.

In 2009, the 3.2m international passengers were generated from 59 international destinations that were available on some kind of regular chater or scheduled service. In 2004, there were 35 international destinations on the same basis. The only routes not available in 2009 from any of the three airports that you could have got in 2004 were a scheduled route to Cork and charter routes to Varna and Verona.

so i dont see why it is unreasonable to suggest that HUY would have had a significant charter operation now had the market not been saturated

The data sugests otherwise. In 2004 , UK airports handled 35.6m international charter passengers. By 2009 this had fallen to 23.0m, a decrease of 36%. Of the top 25 airports by volume of international charter passengers in 2004, 24 recorded decreases, with the smallest decrease being a 22% fall (EXT). In general though, the smaller the airport, the bigger the impact has been, as consolidation in the sector has impacted those airports that were reliant on single aircraft bases or 'w' patterns from overseas airlines for their charter business. It is also the case that long haul charter has been more resiliant than short haul, so the numbers would look worse if run purely on the short haul market.

 

[pug]

In 2004, LBA and HUY handled 2.3m international passengers. In 2009, LBA,HUY and DSA handled 3.2m, an increase of 39%. Over the same period, the UK maket as a whole (exlcuding HUY, DSA and LBA) grew by just 5%, meaning international air travel from Yorkshire and Humberside grew at nearly 8 times the rate as the rest of the country in the period since DSA opened.

The largest growth there is from LBA, so thats a bit of a red herring. Also, consider the effect it had on HUY before DSA opened, it would not be right to believe that HUY would not have recieved significant sustainable growth in the charter market (TOM would likely have based) had DSA not opened. SZD would have gained anumber of business flights and perhaps even FlyBE and i fully believe that airport could have been comfortably handling 1 million pax per year now sustainably. Both HUY and DSA saw large drops last year, double digit in most months, whilst i believe LBA saw growth.

In 2009, the 3.2m international passengers were generated from 59 international destinations that were available on some kind of regular chater or scheduled service. In 2004, there were 35 international destinations on the same basis. The only routes not available in 2009 from any of the three airports that you could have got in 2004 were a scheduled route to Cork and charter routes to Varna and Verona.

Once again, mainly down to Jet2 at LBA. With the exception of the Wizz flights from DSA, what exactly has it brought to the region that wouldnt have happened anyway? Wizz could have had a successful operation from HUY owing to the large Polish population in Lincolnshire and East Yorkshire.

The data sugests otherwise. In 2004 , UK airports handled 35.6m international charter passengers. By 2009 this had fallen to 23.0m, a decrease of 36%. Of the top 25 airports by volume of international charter passengers in 2004, 24 recorded decreases, with the smallest decrease being a 22% fall (EXT). In general though, the smaller the airport, the bigger the impact has been, as consolidation in the sector has impacted those airports that were reliant on single aircraft bases or 'w' patterns from overseas airlines for their charter business. It is also the case that long haul charter has been more resiliant than short haul, so the numbers would look worse if run purely on the short haul market.

The biggest annoyance with the whole thing is the way i believe it has affected airtravel in Yorkshire.

Interesting if you look at the CAA data for 2004 and compare to 2009. 2004 was of course the last full year before operations began at DSA in April 2005.

In 2004, LBA and HUY handled 2.3m international passengers. In 2009, LBA,HUY and DSA handled 3.2m, an increase of 39%. Over the same period, the UK maket as a whole (exlcuding HUY, DSA and LBA) grew by just 5%, meaning international air travel from Yorkshire and Humberside grew at nearly 8 times the rate as the rest of the country in the period since DSA opened.

In 2009, the 3.2m international passengers were generated from 59 international destinations that were available on some kind of regular chater or scheduled service. In 2004, there were 35 international destinations on the same basis. The only routes not available in 2009 from any of the three airports that you could have got in 2004 were a scheduled route to Cork and charter routes to Varna and Verona.

so i dont see why it is unreasonable to suggest that HUY would have had a significant charter operation now had the market not been saturated

The data sugests otherwise. In 2004 , UK airports handled 35.6m international charter passengers. By 2009 this had fallen to 23.0m, a decrease of 36%. Of the top 25 airports by volume of international charter passengers in 2004, 24 recorded decreases, with the smallest decrease being a 22% fall (EXT). In general though, the smaller the airport, the bigger the impact has been, as consolidation in the sector has impacted those airports that were reliant on single aircraft bases or 'w' patterns from overseas airlines for their charter business. It is also the case that long haul charter has been more resiliant than short haul, so the numbers would look worse if run purely on the short haul market.

Again you are neglecting the fact that HUY has suffered due to TOM basing at DSA, though it was fine when XL based and proved people still wanted to use HUY over DSA, but XL pulled out due to 'restructuring', though unfortunately we later found out it was down to financial problems. Instead, what you have now is not more choice of airlines and routes (you must know how important critical mass is to build a successful operation at an airport) but one airport that is struggling to attract the business flights that SZD would have done due to it being in the city centre, and another that is finding it hard to build back up its charter routes lost but retains its important links to AMS and ABZ for the business in the core catchment area. Now im sure that is a good example of saturation wouldnt you agree?

The question is again, what has DSA brought to the market that could not have been covered (and some) from the three airports that were in Yorkshire and the Humber before?

 

[User0001]

The largest growth there is from LBA, so thats a bit of a red herring.

Sorry, simply not the case Pug. The 0.9m growth between 04 and 09 was +0.8m DSA, +0.3m LBA and -0.2m HUY

Also, consider the effect it had on HUY before DSA opened, it would not be right to believe that HUY would not have recieved significant sustainable growth in the charter market (TOM would likely have based) had DSA not opened.

So I suppose the question is why didn't it happen? HUY had plenty of advance warning to put deals in place. MAG has always been highly profitable and had the cash the fund deals and could have built a critical mass at HUY, so I wonder why that didn't happen.

As it is, the area got the charter growth (rather uniquely in the UK as it happens). It just happened to be at DSA rather than HUY. Your view on that I suppose depends whether you have a particularly strong preference for one airport over the other. For me, its an hour 15 mins to DSA and an hour 30 mins to HUY, so no strong view on either to be honest.

SZD would have gained anumber of business flights and perhaps even FlyBE and i fully believe that airport could have been comfortably handling 1 million pax per year now sustainably.

Hmmm. 40 pax per flight would have been a fantastic achievement for SZD (LCY is about 40-50 pax per flight and can accommodate larger aircraft than SZD could), yet even at 40 per flight, it would have needed 25,000 movements a year to deliver 1m passengers. The best SZD ever did was 29 pax per flight - about right for the 30 - 50 seat market. On that measure, SZD would have needed 35,000 movements to deliver 1m and therefore would be busier than LBA in terms of commercial movements, yet would be achieving this entirely to domestic and near europe destinations???

 

[pug]

Sorry, simply not the case Pug. The 0.9m growth between 04 and 09 was +0.8m DSA, +0.3m LBA and -0.2m HUY

Fair enough, those statistics surprise me due to the large growth of Jet2 over that period. Of course now Ryanair are operating from there i guess we will have to wait till next year as im sure that will add another million to LBA. Also interesting to note thats an airline that were supposidly going into DSA but couldnt make the routes work.

So I suppose the question is why didn't it happen? HUY had plenty of advance warning to put deals in place. MAG has always been highly profitable and had the cash the fund deals and could have built a critical mass at HUY, so I wonder why that didn't happen.

As it is, the area got the charter growth (rather uniquely in the UK as it happens). It just happened to be at DSA rather than HUY. Your view on that I suppose depends whether you have a particularly strong preference for one airport over the other. For me, its an hour 15 mins to DSA and an hour 30 mins to HUY, so no strong view on either to be honest.

They were working at getting a based charter airline. They didnt want to flood the market with low-cost airlines and in fact (though i cannot reference this) HUY was Thomsons second best selling airport after INV. There was admittedly a certain amount of complacancy as MAG simply didnt believe the government would give the go ahead to another airport in South Yorkshire, by the time it got the go ahead TOM were already going to serve DSA yet MAG were none the wiser.

As for 'having a strong view' then yes, of course i have. You are looking at the subject from a very simplistic view point, and are using statistics to back up your argument that work both ways. I.e this next quote...

The best SZD ever did was 29 pax per flight - about right for the 30 - 50 seat market.

So why would a business airline do any better at DSA?

As for

On that measure, SZD would have needed 35,000 movements to deliver 1m and therefore would be busier than LBA in terms of commercial movements, yet would be achieving this entirely to domestic and near europe destinations???

The largest growth there is from LBA, so thats a bit of a red herring.

Sorry, simply not the case Pug. The 0.9m growth between 04 and 09 was +0.8m DSA, +0.3m LBA and -0.2m HUY

Also, consider the effect it had on HUY before DSA opened, it would not be right to believe that HUY would not have recieved significant sustainable growth in the charter market (TOM would likely have based) had DSA not opened.

So I suppose the question is why didn't it happen? HUY had plenty of advance warning to put deals in place. MAG has always been highly profitable and had the cash the fund deals and could have built a critical mass at HUY, so I wonder why that didn't happen.

As it is, the area got the charter growth (rather uniquely in the UK as it happens). It just happened to be at DSA rather than HUY. Your view on that I suppose depends whether you have a particularly strong preference for one airport over the other. For me, its an hour 15 mins to DSA and an hour 30 mins to HUY, so no strong view on either to be honest.

SZD would have gained anumber of business flights and perhaps even FlyBE and i fully believe that airport could have been comfortably handling 1 million pax per year now sustainably.

Hmmm. 40 pax per flight would have been a fantastic achievement for SZD (LCY is about 40-50 pax per flight and can accommodate larger aircraft than SZD could), yet even at 40 per flight, it would have needed 25,000 movements a year to deliver 1m passengers. The best SZD ever did was 29 pax per flight - about right for the 30 - 50 seat market. On that measure, SZD would have needed 35,000 movements to deliver 1m and therefore would be busier than LBA in terms of commercial movements, yet would be achieving this entirely to domestic and near europe destinations???

Are you aware of an airline called FlyBE? They have a fleet of aircraft with seats from 80 to 118, and they wanted to operate from SZD. The airport was central to the catchment area and could have offered a wider number of flights to several city type destinations and, had the runway been extended a bit, could have even flown to southern spain, though is that realy important to an airport that was supposed to offer business passengers the connectivity?

I think in terms of DSAs catchment area (remember they are not bounded by county) you should also look at EMAs growth during the period. The fact that FR, LS and TOM long-haul have all concentrated there (and some at LBA) and have neglected DSA tells you something. Even if Sheffield city was handling less that half a million passengers now, you can bet that it would be routes that benefitted the local economy rather than bucket and spade routes that dont. DSA simply is not conveniant enough for Sheffield when there is EMA down the M1 with far more choice, and the opening of DSA hasnt changed that has it? Thats something you keep pushing to a side, youre not a politician are you? 😆 Afterall, wasnt DSA supposed to be a hub for low-cost airlines and freight (im purposefully not including long-haul)? All of that EMA is and more, but EMA has more to offer as the catchment area (and we know the airlines see it the same) overlaps that of DSA's significantly yet is far bigger due to Nottingham, Leicester and Derby.

The extra 800,000 pax handled by DSA would have been handled by all LBA, HUY and SZD and probably would have been a higher number. Look at it this way, if the government had listened to the experts, or had known that it would turn out this way, do you honestly thnk it would have still gotten the go ahead?

 

[User0001]

The best SZD ever did was 29 pax per flight - about right for the 30 - 50 seat market.

So why would a business airline do any better at DSA?

I didn't suggest it would. The stat was to prove how difficult it would be for an airport focussing mainly on business flights to deliver 1 million passngers.

Are you aware of an airline called FlyBE? They have a fleet of aircraft with seats from 80 to 118, and they wanted to operate from SZD. The airport was central to the catchment area and could have offered a wider number of flights to several city type destinations and, had the runway been extended a bit, could have even flown to southern spain

An interesting theory and not one I'd heard before. It's a pity flybe didn't notify Sheffield City Council of their intentions as when the Council Cabinet met in July 2005, their own study concluded.

All of the airlines consulted said that the physical limitations (principally runway length) was a fundamental impediment to commercial airline operations, with many of the commonly used regional turboprop aircraft subject to payload and range limitations. None of the airlines were considering operations in the short to medium term and all indicated that they would need powerful financial incentives to do so. All regarded the operations as high risk, particularly given the failure of the earlier scheduled services to achieve long-term viability.

Any proposal to extend the runway would result in breaches to the noise conditions and airfield safety requirements given the built up area around the airport site. There are therefore no realistic development options that could overcome the fundamental operational constraints.

...maybe things could have worked out differently for SZD had flybe they made their intentions known. I am meeting flybe in a couple of weeks so I'll see if they were one of the airlines consulted.

As for DSA in general, let's just agree to disagree.

 

[pug]

An interesting theory and not one I'd heard before. It's a pity flybe didn't notify Sheffield City Council of their intentions as when the Council Cabinet met in July 2005, their own study concluded.

I can tell you in no uncertain terms that the whole SZD agreement was made (unofficially) well before 2005...

...maybe things could have worked out differently for SZD had flybe they made their intentions known. I am meeting flybe in a couple of weeks so I'll see if they were one of the airlines consulted.

The information put forward to me was not from FlyBE but someone at SZD who i believe is incredibly reliable (and knowing the aviation industry i dont say that too often) but please do let me know what they say. Also, do me a favour and ask them their plans for HUY whilst you're at it!

The site isnt allowing me to post any more quotes but yes, it may be a good idea to agree to disagree. Dont get me wrong, if DSA comes out to prove me wrong then i will not be dissapointed, ive used the place before and its not a bad second choice to HUY... Just think its missed the boat big time and is going to live with that for years to come...