Road, Rail & Access Issues

[Aviador]

The governments Electrification Task Force has put the York-Harrogate-Leeds line in a list of 12 "top tier" priorities for electrification. It seems ironic the government is seemingly willing to upgrade the Harrogate line but at the same time not provide any kind of facility to help passengers wanting to use the line to get to Leeds Bradford Airport.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Ironic that the 12 top tier lines identified are all in Labour strongholds and were announced just before a general election?

LBA is irrelevant in that sort of political game.

 

[Aviador]

I'd not thought of it like that but you're absolutely right. The conservatives rather conveniently announced £14bn of spending to go to northern transport infrastructure projects a week or two ago as well. Assuming the conservatives get back into power I wonder at what point they'll be backtracking and saying there isn't enough money to carry out the work. Even if the government does cough up the money, I can't see much of it trickling over the Pennines from Manchester.

 

[Aviador]

More again today from Manchester's very own George Osborne about his plans for Manchester's Powerhouse (sorry I mean the "Northern Powerhouse" :spiteful: ) Yet again, still nothing of any significance to benefit Leeds. It's all about improving road and rail times to get across the Pennines (to Manchester) quicker. Nothing about improving Transport for Leeds, nothing about access to Leeds Bradford Airport or any other transport system to ease the Leeds transport chaos.

Whichever political party wins the general election, Leeds needs somebody to fight and fight hard for money to come our way. I honestly don't know how George Osborne has got away with being so blatantly obviously Manchester centric with the public purse. It's our money too Mr Osborne!

 

[White Heather]

Re: Road, Rail & Access Issuesmor

Frankly, I am sick and tired of hearing about Manchester this, and Manchester that. When they talk about Manchester, they are talking mainly about Greater Manchester - not the City of Manchester which is much, much smaller than Leeds. And Sheffield for that matter. A fair comparison would be Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire. All the money seems to be going West. It is time the Government recognised that the Northern Powerhouse is very dependent on the East of the Pennines too - but this Government will give us nothing until we do as we are told and have an elected mayor to take responsibility for the money being spent. The sad thing is that the more power an autonomy that goes to Greater Manchester, the more they will suck in business and ultimately it will negatively impact on West Yorkshire, and Leeds and Sheffield in particular. Airport wise, we are already seeing the impact that Manchester Airport is having on Leeds Bradford and even Liverpool. We are finding it hard to even develop routes into Western Europe that by rights should be perfectly viable. Everything is going to Manchester which is growing rapidly again. All rather depressing frankly.

 

[Moo2009]

The problem with Leeds City Council is they have no BALLS

Manchester has a amazing Tram system, leeds is attempting to get a waste if Money Trolley bus

Everything Manchester does Leeds us 20 years behind a good example here is the Arena
Manchester Council invests in its airport, Leeds Council sold it as they had no idea about how to run it

 

[Aviador]

The problem with Leeds City Council is they have no BALLS

Manchester has a amazing Tram system, Leeds is attempting to get a waste if Money Trolley bus

Everything Manchester does Leeds us 20 years behind a good example here is the Arena
Manchester Council invests in its airport, Leeds Council sold it as they had no idea about how to run it

Leeds was all set for go for the same kind of tram system Manchester has and the then Labour government rejected it at the last minute. Sadly the Conservatives government has done nothing to help us either.

 

[ls27]

When you look at the decision to not go ahead with the Supertram in Leeds, just look who was the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. - Now an MP for part of this City.No favours there then! The same amount of funding that was withdrawn was met exactly by the same amount to fit a station out in London the following week. Edinburgh deserved a tram system! and of course they got it, and who was the Chancellor at the time,Yes, an MP for that City.Who was the member for a constituency across the Firth of Forth. The PM.
I saw a report in a newspaper the Chancellor had been in talks with FirstBus at the same time as Leeds was trying to get supertram.
Throughout history Manchester has been at the forefront of monies from Government and Leeds pushed to the back of the queue.
So don't blame everything on the City of Leeds, as no matter what they try to do, as well as the MPs for the City, the London Civil Servants rule the roust and Leeds is never the flavour of the month.

 

[Tarn Spotter]

Not sure you can blame the Government when this side of the Pennines rejected an identical plan as manchester last week as the labour councils this side of the Pennines dont have the vision of their friends the other side of the hill.
They rejected a Lord major to control, in the process also rejecting billions of pounds of support, party politics at its worsed, I am sure if labour get in in May, the plans go ahead for an amalgamated regional council.
The money is there for infrastructure measures, not the will to accept if the wrong side offers the money.

 

[Bigman]

We cannot really blame the other side of the hill for getting their act together and standing up to be counted. This side of the hill need to do the same. I agree that the Trolley bus (or as mother amusing calls it 'Folly' bus) is totally pants compared to trams. To show how bad it is, no-one event cottoned on the the fact that if they had extended the plan for just 1.5 miles from the intended terminus at Holt Park, they could have put the case of it being a modern transport link to the airport. Even Sheffield cannot get it's tram-trains sorted out...Nick Clegg country to boot!!

Until this proud county (which according to the Chancellor last week created more jobs last year than the whole of France) get's it's act together, sticks it's hand up and comes up with some decent well thought out plans that are likely to get funding, then to quote Private Fraser, we're all doomed!!!

 

[lbaspotter]

Tour de Yorkshire - Travel information to Leeds-Bradford Airport

Next weekend Leeds will host the finale of the first ever Tour de Yorkshire cycling race on Sunday 3 May.

- To minimise disruption, most road closures will be rolling road closures. This means sections will just be closed for approximately an hour to see the riders move safely through the course.
- Some roads for spectator safety and race logistics will need to be closed for longer periods, such as start and finish lines and some climbs and sprints.

Details of rolling road closures and the schedule for these can be found here: Opens in PDF http://www.leeds.gov.uk/docs/SCHEDULE.pdf

Passengers travelling to Leeds-Bradford Airport from the west and north

- If you need to be at the airport between 3pm and 5:15pm, please plan to arrive there before 3pm to avoid getting caught in any traffic build up around the rolling road closure.
- If you need to be at the airport between 5:15pm and 6pm please allow extra time for your journey as traffic may take some time to return to normal levels after the rolling road closures.

Passengers travelling to Leeds-Bradford Airport from the east and south

- You should travel to the airport via the city centre and/or southern outer Ring Road routes. Be aware of the rolling road closures, set off early and allow extra time for your journey.
- If you need to be at the airport between 3pm and 5:15pm please plan to arrive there before 3pm to avoid getting caught in any traffic build up around the rolling road closure.
- If you need to be at the airport between 5:15pm and 6pm please allow extra time for your journey as traffic may take some time to return to normal levels after the rolling road closures. ​​​​​

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Howdy all,

It has been a little while since I posted for one reason or another but I was having a read through the last couple of months or so of posts and I would just like to add some points to this whole Manchester/Yorkshire argument when it comes to transport development as it is not as black and white as Leeds/Sheffield vs Manchester and, actually, it is not as one sided as you might imagine.

Manchester Metrolink was born out of a plan to provide better transport links across Manchester city centre. The original plans were drawn up in the early 1970s as an underground link designed to connect Victoria and Piccadilly stations. That plan was abandoned in the late 70s because the funding was not forthcoming from the government however the plans continued under the guise of the Metrolink. At the time, Manchester had a number of dilapidated and loss making heavy rail lines that were largely self contained. These were the Victoria to Bury line and the Piccadilly to Altrincham line. The Victoria to Bury line in particular was a problem because it ran off a non-standard electrical supply. Both lines needed updating at huge cost to remain operational. In 1984, it was agreed that both lines would be converted to light rail as a cost saving option to the existing lines. This was then linked into the plans to connect Piccadilly and Victoria. In the end, it was the projected money saved by the plans that got the green light. It was then a further 8 years before the link was finally opened to the public - a full 23 years after the initial plans.

The link was an immediate success, despite some early reliability problems and the system smashed all estimated incomes. The initial link cost the 2015 equivalent of £250m - a relative bargain - as most of the infrastructure was already in place. The success of the project then afforded the flexibility to move onwards with the next phase of planning and was delivered at a 2015 equivalent cost of £240m. However, the majority of this was privately funded as it was linked in with the Salford Quays redevelopment. By 1999, Manchester had a successful and efficient link that was costing the taxpayer significantly less than the heavy rail lines it replaced. All subsequent development of Metrolink has been based on broadly the same terms. The Oldham link replaced a dilapidated and costly self contained heavy rail line provding further long term savings to the taxpayer and the remainder of the lines have been funded with a mix of local, national and European funding as well as significant private sector investment, including Manchester City Football Club. In any case, further central funding was only made available based on the success of the previous phase. Had there not been a significant cost saving by replacing the heavy rail lines, the funding would not have been provided for the remainder of the system. It is now more than 40 years since the first plans were developed and the region finally has a decent public transit system.

Compare this to Sheffield and Leeds. The Sheffield Supertram was opened at broadly the same time as the Metrolink on infrastructure that was almost entirely new at a 2015 equivalent cost of £440m - almost twice the cost of phase 1 of Metrolink - after a planning period that was less than that in Manchester. Supertram then failed to meet expected passenger numbers and became a white elephant for the government which shaped all other new build Supertram proposals in Britain, including Leeds. However, after many years, the system finally started to pull its weight and is now being used by the government to trial Tram-Train technology, with an updated line to Rotherham opening in the next couple of years at a cost of £58m and a new line to Dore has recently been approved (based on the initial plans) that have been linked in with HS2.

Leeds Supertram was slated to run on completely new infrastructure, built at the taxpayers' expense. The system was initially approved until the cost ballooned to a 2015 equivalent of £1.3bn - five times the cost of Metrolink and thrice that of Sheffield Supertram. The likelihood is that it would never have recouped it's cost had it been built for that price - regardless of how successful it had been. The plans themselves were very poor and ill thought out and, since the Trolleybus plans follow broadly the same logic, it is unlikely that this will happen either.

This is not the end of the story though. When it comes to spending on public transport, it is important to remember that the Airedale and Wharefdale lines were electrified in the early 90's as a stand-alone project, whereas most electrification around Manchester at that time had been as a result of the West Coast Main Line and a scheme to save money on the closed Woodhead route. Leeds station was then redeveloped and enlarged in the early 2000s at a cost that was similar to the Manchester Piccadilly upgrade that happened at roughly the same time. Manchester Victoria station is now being upgraded at a cost of £44m but Leeds is also building a new entrance at a cost of £17m and budgets are soon to be signed off for a further extension of the station.

Furthermore, Yorkshire gained the completed A1-M1 link at about the same time as Manchester gained the completed M60, West Yorkshire then got the M62 smart motorway scheme BEFORE work was started on the M62/M60 in Manchester and the M1 in West Yorkshire is also being upgraded to the same standard at the same time.

The current plans for the Northern Hub do seem to favour the Manchester region to some extent but it is mainly because it needs to be favoured. The worst delays on the British Rail network are at Manchester Piccadilly station and the work being carried out will actually improve productivity, saving and making money rather than costing money. The improvements to that part of the network are also crucial in providing benefits to the rest of the Northern network - without it, trains through Leeds, Sheffield, Bradford and Liverpool cannot be improved. There is a mutual benefit to it all.

The only thing that Yorkshire is not doing as well as Greater Manchester is airport connectivity and (in Leeds) improving local public transport. Until Leeds City Council gets it's act together, this is not going to happen. The best thing to do would be to scrap all existing Tram and Trolleybus proposals altogether and start again. The proposal should be for Tram Train to run on the existing heavy line from Leeds to Harrogate. Trains between Harrogate/Knaresborough and York would then be provided by an extension to the Hull - York service. Bridgepoint would need to stump up the capital (as MAG did) to then build a light rail link into the airport. This would form the basis of the system.

The saving made by the system and the improved connectivity into the local airport (which is a key policy of current government) would contribute to the success of the system and it's continued expansion. It could then be delivered into a phase 2 which could incorporate electrification on the Leeds - York line as far as Crossgates. New stations could be built between Leeds and Crossgates and the system could then turn off the main line onto a light rail line utilising the former trackbed - much of which still exists - and shared running between Crossgates and Wetherby. Imagine that - most of Leeds connected without building too much new infrastructure. The increasing passenger numbers could then form the request for public money to be spent on a brand new line from a Stourton park and ride (which would already have been built using a bus link providing real information on passenger numbers) through Headingley to Holt Park. Then Bradford could get in on the act by extending Tram links from LBA to Interchange using heavy rail via Guiseley, Shipley and Forster Square. The next phase could be to replace the bus lanes on the A61 corridor from Alwoodley, through Leeds and out to Middleton - again without significant changes to the local area. By this time, the South of Leeds will be regenerated and the Tram link would be the next step to improving the area. I would estimate that this would take approximately 25 - 30 years, by which time, HS2 will have arrived - another good bargaining tool.

It has to be done piece by piece with a realistic cost/benefit ratio and, I'm afraid to say, that has not been the case thus far. The only thing that is holding it back is poor planning and lack of forsight. We can complain as much as we like but the facts and figures prove that Manchester is not being favoured over Yorkshire. Yorkshire - Leeds in particular - simply needs to do a better job.

I know this was a long read and if you took the time to do so, thank you. This is a topic in which I take a particular interest and feel very strongly about and I think it is important that we fully understand the facts. I just wish I could do something to help the current situation.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

Many thanks for that 'wsj'. I found your post interesting and informative.

If, a big if of course, your suggestions, or something like them, ever came to fruition what sort of maximum annual passenger total could LBA be reasonably expected to cope with?

Bristol Airport, with many similarities to LBA, is currently facing a maximum of 10 mppa through its planning consents. It's very difficult to ever see it having the room to handle, say, in excess of 15 mppa because it doesn't have the space (less space than LBA I would imagine).

Incidentally, the lost tram opportunity also has resonance in the Bristol area but that's for the BRS thread.

 

[Aviador]

whoshotjimmi More importantly thank you for taking the time to write all that.

 

[Tarn Spotter]

we could have had a West Yorkshire power house with funds in the March budget if the local labour councils had agreed to elect a mayor for the region.
We will not get anywhere when local politicians play the party card, we have just turned away £Billions due to party fighting.
At least Apperly Bridge station is well on the way, this will be a great link to LBA with a shuttle bus service or short taxi ride.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Local Yokel - I think that LBA will struggle to expand much more without significant investment in transport infrastructure but it is important to remember that it is not the only thing that needs to happen.

Attracting additional routes is always a good start and I point to the rapid expansion of Wizz Air at Doncaster as a prime example of the sort of thing that could be achieved without improving infrastructure - the flights into DSA arrive at a time that would have been perfect for exploiting off peak times at LBA (mainly between 6-8pm). As long as there is available capacity at LBA - both in the terminal and on the local roads, it makes other investment more difficult to justify. Since the Wizz Air option seems to have now been lost, LBA will have to work very hard to fill those gaps.

However, IF an initial phase of tram train were to make it to LBA, though it would certainly increase passenger numbers and reduce the strain on the local network, there would still be the problem of the size of the terminal building, the lack of parking space on the apron and the runway capacity constraints which would all have to be dealt with in order to make best use of any link. As it stands, it would be difficult for LBA to pass much more than 4mppa without significant changes to the airfield and buildings. The link, in it's infancy, would be far more beneficial to the local communities.

Having said all that, I did state that any improvements have to be piece by piece. £20m on providing a light rail link to the airport. Increased opportunity for passengers to get to the airport more quickly would mean increased flight options. Increased flight options would then mean more passengers using the airport. More passengers using the airport would mean a larger terminal building, apron and taxiways. This would then mean more passengers which could mean that a light rail link to Guiseley would be more feasible, including a cross Bradford link. This would mean more passengers from Bradford and the Calder Valley have more opportunity to get to LBA using public transport and not getting stuck in the ludicrous traffic through Bradford. And so on and so on. Bit by bit, piece by piece, little and often. It may take 20/25 years to get to that state but I think, realistically, with all that in place, LBA could expand to maybe 7/8mppa. It would not only benefit LBA but would have far wider positive implications.

I think the time to get the proposal on the table is now. The next Northern Rail franchise is going to have to commit to replacing Pacers. This is going to come at a very high initial cost to the taxpayer. If the local authorities could suggest conversion to tram train as an alternative to unit replacement, the cost/benefit ratio would be much better and I could realistically see the scheme completed with a basic 30 minute frequency from Leeds to Harrogate and from Leeds to LBA (15 minutes between Leeds and Horsforth) in 5 years, with an increased frequency of 20 minutes to each destination (10 minutes between Leeds and Horsforth) within a further 3. But do I see it happening?

I still do not believe that a spur to the airport would be publicly funded but £20m of private money would represent good value in my opinion. However, that would still require all the relevant stakeholders to get on the same page and approve a conversion to light rail use between Leeds and Harrogate. That is where the biggest hurdle lies. There is a very simple and logical solution which would be mutually beneficial to everyone but getting them all to agree? Difficult.

 

[Bigman]

So, the Transpennine Electrification is now on hold thanks to the government. No fast trains to Manny any time soon then, but not much chance of anything happening rail link wise at LBA I guess !!

 

[Aviador]

I noticed the local rag was reporting on protesters planning a campaign to stop the airport link road because it is going to destroy green belt land.

 

[White Heather]

Inevitable that the NIMBY's would be up and running yet again. For so long, people have complained about how busy it is in Yeadon and Rawdon and how badly the airport affects this (which is not actually totally true). They have also been screaming that something needs to be done to improve access to the airport. Now it is on the cards and funding approved, they are campaigning to stop it and claiming that the new road will make things worse and there is no evidence to suggest it is actually needed?? Unbelievable. The route hasn't been confirmed yet - but the one proposed will run almost entirely through green belt area - not to mention Horsforth Golf Club where I was once a member. The alternative is the demolition of houses, so what do they want? Hopefully when designing the new road, it will be built in sympathy with the surroundings, in cuttings were possible, so as to be less intrusivie and visible in the surrounding areas. This would also reduce noise impact.

 

[Tarn Spotter]

As a local in total favour of any improvements to the airport and its infrastructure, hope only local protesters allowed. I get upset when protesters from far and wide stick their nose in.
I find locally a lot of support for the airport, as my neighbours Jet2 staff they have a vested interest in the airport expanding.