Road, Rail & Access Issues

[lbaspotter]

hi adam
re-the local buses into Pudsey then to LBA,all those services terminate at Leeds bus station where the airport bus starts from,also the buses from York.selby,castleford etc stop or terminate.
regards
sm1

The Ring Road service No9 (Operated by First in Leeds) terminates at Horsforth town street as I currently use this service from Farsley to connect onto the 33A/97 or 757. The No9 service passes though most parts of South and West Leeds including Calton - Crossgates - Austhorpe - Swillington - Rothwell - Middleton - White Rose Shopping Centre & Pudsey. I'm sure if Firstbus wanted to they could extend the service from Horsforth onto the Airport. Like you say Adam it would allow for easier connections on to all Arriva's routes that run south and west of Leeds city centre.

 

[jason1-11]

I see there will be new direct services to Manchester Airport from both Halifax and Bradford so would assume an even larger share of West Yorkshire traffic will be heading over the Pennines.

 

[leedslad]

I can confirm that as a business user, lack of rail link has prevented me, colleagues and visitors from using LBA several times in the past.

A few scenarios (all just business related):

You need to get somewhere that has infrequent flights from the North - so perhaps it works out you could do MAN-DESTINATION-LBA flight wise. If there were a train link then it would be possible to park at LBA or Leeds centre and make those flights. Nobody is going to faff about with a 40 min bus ride however, so end up doing MAN for both legs.

Visitors are coming to the Leeds/Yorkshire office. They could go out their way to get a relative infrequent/poorly timed/expensive flight into Leeds but then you tell them they'll need an expensive long taxi ride or to get on the local bus and they just go for Manc instantly.

You agree to share a car to the airport from the office, but on return one of you will need taxi or public transport home - with no train option then Leeds becomes much less attrative.

Also factor in that the catchment area by public transport within 45 mins will grow SUBSTANTIALLY with a rail link.

 

[Aviador]

Bigman, a second 97 bus route stopping at the airport, are you serious? You could have checked in an boarded your flight at Manchester in the time it take to get to the Yeadon area on the 97 bus.

What is becoming apparent in the report is the lack of cohesion between access to the airport and access to the surrounding areas of Yeadon, Rawdon, Guiseley and Menston. Local traffic in the Aireborough area is horrendous with or without the airport in Yeadon and the problem is only going to get worse with plans for thousands of new homes in the area over the next few years.

The airport is unlikely to be able to sustain a fixed railway to the site without including a park and ride for commuters travelling to Leeds or Bradford, again this doesn't seem to be covered in the report? The maps in the report showing the drive-time access to the airport by both car and bus is appalling and without significant investment it wont only be the airport that suffers from poor connectivity. (thousands of homes planned for Rawdon Billing!) The A65 and A658 can't cope as it is.

It is still my belief a light rail tram system would be best suited to connect to the airport also providing access to parts of Yeadon which are currently poorly connected by other public transport modes and I for one would be more inclined to use a light rail system to Leeds as opposed to using a bus which generally take far too long.

 

[Bigman]

Tell me Aviador, when was the last time you travelled to Manchester Airport from Leeds by public transport? Do you seriously think you can get there by train, check-in and board in less than an hour?

Anyway, given what they were saying on Look North this morning we can forget a rail link any time soon. £38M road link off the A65 is the best we will get.

 

[lbaspotter]

Anyway, given what they were saying on Look North this morning we can forget a rail link any time soon. £38M road link off the A65 is the best we will get.

Its good to see the Government dose support the new £38 million link road been built. As most poreple tend to travel to the airport by car now-a-days due to it been seen by some as a bucket and spade airport. The report says It will cut 8 minutes off bus journeys between the airport and Leeds city centre. Also the 757 route would most likely become a limited stop service. The report goes on to say that by diverting A65 to A658 (local through traffic) onto the new road, Bus journeys between Bradford, Harrogate and the airport would become quicker as existing roads in the area would become less congested. Also they would like to see the direct bus route to York been re-introduced from the Airport along with shuttle bus links to either Horsforth rail station or to the new station been built at Appley Bridge.

So it's not all doom and gloom. As £38 million is a lot of money in my book.

 

[Aviador]

Tell me Aviador, when was the last time you travelled to Manchester Airport from Leeds by public transport? Do you seriously think you can get there by train, check-in and board in less than an hour?

Anyway, given what they were saying on Look North this morning we can forget a rail link any time soon. £38M road link off the A65 is the best we will get.

Hi Bigman, I made no comparison between using public transport to travel to Leeds vs Manchester airport. I just meant that taking the 97 bus takes so long to get to Yeadon you could get to Manchester using whatever means quicker.

Looking at all this from a positive perspective which I know is difficult to do considering the continued lack of investment in infrastructure around Leeds generally, improving road travel times to LBA will greatly improve the airports accessibility enabling the airport to continue to grow. As the airport grows, the need to further improve transport connections will become increasingly more viable.

 

[leedsman]

Have been reading with interest. For me, the link road is a must, and the sooner the better. The link road together with the various improvements to bottlenecks will have a much greater benefit to LBA than a rail link would at this time. The road could be in place much sooner than any rail line would. I totally agree with the previous comment that getting passenger throughput increased via better road access, will make other alternatives more cost effective to justify in the future.

Interestingly, the report picked up on the point of poor signage. MAN / LPL are signed from various motorways. Why couldn't LBA be added to the distance signs on the M1 / M62 / A1M. As people drive along the M62, it might make people consider LBA more if they are reminded it is only 10-15 miles from the motorway exit, when Manchester is 50 miles ahead, then another 20 miles beyond to the airport.

The vast majority of people I know travel to UK airports by car/taxi, they don't go on buses and trains. Manchester has a very good rail set-up when you look at this on paper. Having commuted for years on TPE the reality is very different. I very occasionally fly from MAN (mostly LBA) and I would drive every time, even though the train is an option. In the peak times, you often struggle to get on the trains they are so busy, and luggage is all over the place (around doors, in aisles). Far too often it is a nightmare from a passenger perspective. Maybe during the middle of the day on a Wednesday it is different.

It will be interesting to see what impact the new DSA link road has, and whether it creates an increase in passenger demand there. It will certainly make access to DSA from Sheffield/Rotherham via the M18 much much quicker. I'm not sure when the road is due to open, but I know it is under construction.

 

[Bigman]

Hi Aviador. My point about the 97 is that is serves the heavy student heartlands of Hyde Park and Headingley, along with well populated suburbs like West Park and Horsforth. Would only take 30 minutes from the Arndale centre.

Anyway, here are some interesting statistics for you all to ponder. Rail links are much vaunted as almost a 'cure all'. According to the CAA October stats, the rolling year total for Manchester Airport is 21,776,185. According the the ORR station usage figures recently announced, exits and entries to the railway station there totalled just 3,321,876. That's just 15% of the total passenger figure. If you made the same usage assumption for any rail link to LBA, this would result in only about 480,000 rail passengers a year.

That would be pretty much on a par with how many passengers use Horsforth station a year.

 

[White Heather]

Interestingly, the report picked up on the point of poor signage. MAN / LPL are signed from various motorways. Why couldn't LBA be added to the distance signs on the M1 / M62 / A1M. As people drive along the M62, it might make people consider LBA more if they are reminded it is only 10-15 miles from the motorway exit, when Manchester is 50 miles ahead, then another 20 miles beyond to the airport.

.

Leedsman, I am not sure how often you drive along the West Yorkshire and North Yorkshire Motorways, but there are very large, very clear directional signs to Leeds Bradford on the M1 heading North towards Leeds (which direct drivers along the M62/Dewsbury Road/Leeds Ring Road (A6110) route to Horsforth) and on the M1 heading both ways to the East of Leeds, directing airport traffic round the Leeds Ring Road (A6120) . There are also signs on the M62 heading East, which direct drivers along the M606 and through Bradford up to LBA via Harrogate Road (Bradford). And on the A1 there are signs as you travel South which direct drivers along the A59 Harrogate by pass and along to LBA via Pool in Wharfedale. As far as I can see all the Motorways are covered adequately, with the usual 'For Leeds Bradford Airport follow (the aircraft sign). The major weaknesses are to the West of LBA on the roads in the Keighley and Skipton areas and over towards Blackburn and Burnley. LBA is actually the closest airport to Burnley and LBA could/should be pulling in more passengers from that area if the road links were improved and there was adequate signage provided. However, road signage is not the responsibility of LBA - and the Dept of Transport are not likely to invest heavily in such signage given the current financial cutbacks all Government Departments are facing up to.

 

[leedsman]

Thanks White Heather. I take your point, and agree signage is good from a number of key areas but could be better in others. Maybe I didn't make my point very clear.

I was thinking more along the lines that it would be useful to add "LBA + Plane Symbol" to the motorway distance signs (the ones which follow each junction), to indicate how far the airport actually is. There is very good signage at the key motorway exits themselves for travelling to the airport. There is nothing to indicate the airport's distance as you pass the approaching few motorway junctions.

When travelling on the M62, you see confirmations of distances from MAN something like 30 miles out, same for LPL to a lesser extent. I've heard comments before from people that they could drive from say Wakefield to MAN, quicker than they could get to LBA via the the ring road. It makes it sound like Horsforth is the other end of the country. Perhaps if people saw indications it was only 15 miles from J28 (or whatever it is) it might somewhat change that perception some hold.

I drive the local motorways every day now - I gave up on the train commuting about 6 months ago, it was making me a grumpy commuter !! Much happier now

 

[Tarn Spotter]

If the Scottish parliament scraps APD all traffic will move north, my sister lives in York, she thinks another hour on the train to Edinburgh to save money worth while.
We have heard on this forum how Newcastle has grown, maybe in 3 years LBA figures of growth will look good as it has limited rail connections unlike Manchester and newcastle and saving hundreds on APD will not be as possible for folks in this area.

 

[TheLocalYokel]

If the Scottish parliament scraps APD all traffic will move north, my sister lives in York, she thinks another hour on the train to Edinburgh to save money worth while.
We have heard on this forum how Newcastle has grown, maybe in 3 years LBA figures of growth will look good as it has limited rail connections unlike Manchester and newcastle and saving hundreds on APD will not be as possible for folks in this area.

For short haul, by far the usual offering from most UK regional airports, an adult couple would save a total of £26 in economy. Any children under 12 would not pay APD next year and those under 16 would be exempt the year after. Long haul is obviously a considerably bigger saving.

There may well be additional costs associated with reaching a more distant airport in Scotland, not to mention extra time getting there. I wonder how many people would consider this worthwhile for a short haul flight.

 

[airforced]

Some simple questions.

Have any surveys been done in relatively recent times as to where passengers using LBA have travelled from to get to the airport and how they made the journey?

If not how can anyone be sure what sort of road, rail and access improvements would be beneficial and worthwhile?

If a survey has been done was it ever published?

If not why not and would it be a good idea for someone to instigate such an exercise?

Reason I ask is that I seem to be assaulted regularly at foreign airports by clipboard wielding interviewers (students or tourist office personnel mainly) but have never been accosted at LBA and interrogated. Food for thought?

 

[Aviador]

The CAA regularly conduct surveys at the airport. Usually about once a month in the departure lounge.

 

[oldendays]

Not really relevant here but I conducted a couple of airport surveys when I was still at school, in October 1986 and July 1987. The first was observing traffic flow to and from the airport. There was very little public transport back then so that particular survey probably didn't reveal anything. The second was on behalf of the British Isles Aviation Society (some folk on here might remember that organisation) and was a study into where passengers were flying to, where they lived and how they had travelled to the airport. I was sixteen years old at the time and not that comfortable approaching total strangers armed with a clipboard. So I made up most of the survey. I apologise if I have set back LBA's market research by twenty seven years !I

 

[airforced]

Aviador. What sort of questions do the CAA surveys ask? Are they relevant to methods of getting to and from the airport, ie this thread, or are they about other things, for example destinations, airport ease of use etc etc and are they published anywhere? Please provide a link if there is one.

Oldendays. I trust you have been hanging your head in shame for the last ?? years!!

 

[oldendays]

No shame at all. It was a beautiful early summer day, it was a school-organised work experience thing, I wasn't getting paid to do it. And I really couldn't be arsed ! Good job I don't work in marketing.

 

[Aviador]

airforced

These are the kind of questions the CAA ask.

What is your postcode?
How did you get to the airport?
Where are you flying to?
How long are you staying there?
What is the reason for your visit?
What is your income?
What is your age?

A quick flick through the CAA website and I think this PDF document is probably what you're looking for.

 

[airforced]

Thank you for that link Aviador.

I've had a very quick look at the 169 page document and will return and take a closer look when I get a moment or two. What immediately struck me was that no survey has been carried out at LBA since 2010 whereas other airports have taken part in their surveys since then. From looking at the CAA website it isn't clear whether or not LBA have been asked to take part since then or that they have declined the CAA offer to include them in later surveys.

In statistical terms a 2010 survey is now virtually useless unless it can be read in conjunction with later, more up to date surveys, so enabling trends to be identified. In particular, as far as LBA is concerned, if the increase in passenger numbers passing through the airport has led to a change in methods of travel.

In the 2010 survey the vast majority of passengers made their way to/from the airport by private not public transport which didn't surprise me one bit.

What the survey didn't tell us (nor couldn't as far as I could see at first glance) was what influenced their choice of transport or at what time of day or night they passed through the airport.

To me the lack of this sort of information poses a problem if the information is to be used as a basis for identifying current weaknesses in road, rail and other access issues. Therefore I have to conclude that this sort of survey, whilst it may fit the bill for a wide number of aviation related subjects, doesn't serve any particular purpose for the things we are discussing on this thread.

For others who may have a look at the survey the old adage "There are lies, damn lies and statistics" should always be regarded as the truth and not just a 'saying'.