KLM

[White Heather]

Perhaps the late arrival and early departure flights are the busiest, the E295 seats 135 as opposed to the E190/E175 which seat 100/88 respectively.

They certainly used to be. Pre Covid, the early departure was regularly full.

 

[Starflyer]

Is this the end of the KLM & Eastern Airways agreement?

Apparently so, yes.

 

[Stagman]

If I remember last year for Teesside on KLM website. It was showing KLMCH metals for the Winter Timetable. Only changing to Eastern metals I think during September time. So I think there is still time for it to change on the website. So I would probably expect the same sort of thing to happen this year as well. So a case of keeping your eyes peeled.

 

[Flightlevel330]

If I remember last year for Teesside on KLM website. It was showing KLMCH metals for the Winter Timetable. Only changing to Eastern metals I think during September time. So I think there is still time for it to change on the website. So I would probably expect the same sort of thing to happen this year as well. So a case of keeping your eyes peeled.

I can tell you categorically that it will be all KLM metal this winter at LBA I’m afraid.

 

[Starflyer]

I can tell you categorically that it will be all KLM metal this winter at LBA I’m afraid.

I don't think anyone will see this as a bad thing! It sounds like the three aircraft coming from Hop! are indeed direct replacements for the three Eastern E190s operating for KLM even if flying different routes.

 

[pug]

I don't think anyone will see this as a bad thing! It sounds like the three aircraft coming from Hop! are indeed direct replacements for the three Eastern E190s operating for KLM even if flying different routes.

Apparently not, I’ve been in touch with a couple of people on the inside. So either they haven’t been told by KLM that they are losing the contract or it’s nonsense because they are still actively recruiting flight crew to fill spaces that as yet don’t exist and this apparently still includes LBA longer term. The reason the LBA switched back to KLM this summer was purely down to their inability to adequately crew the base at the time, something they kept KLM aware of and hence the decision to postpone the base after initially starting it. I understand there were some issues resulting in positioning of crew on a daily basis which isn’t sustainable. Whether KLM choose to keep it as a KLC operation or not I don’t know, but there’s no indication that Eastern have lost the contract to serve the other airports at the moment.

 

[Len Fish]

Well all I can say is that if those circumstances are correct then KLM must be very understanding!

 

[KARFA]

i like the way that eastern keeping klm fully informed of their inability to actually crew the wetlease operation they have signed an agreement to actually run is a positive - as if it was possible they could have said nothing and just kept cancelling

unless there was no other option available, i wouldn't touch eastern with a barge pole. as i said before, they are a complete basket case and keep proving it for all to see.

 

[Starflyer]

Apparently not, I’ve been in touch with a couple of people on the inside. So either they haven’t been told by KLM that they are losing the contract or it’s nonsense because they are still actively recruiting flight crew to fill spaces that as yet don’t exist and this apparently still includes LBA longer term.

Most likely that there's a state of denial in Humberside, I think, and the few who know are not being forthcoming with the news.

You've another poster here saying clearly that LBA this winter will be all KLM metal - I don't know them or the basis for their statement but their words left nothing to the imagination. You have Hop taking on a three aircraft wet-lease for KLM, and much chat that Eastern is on its way out.

I am sure that time will tell, but we can't both be right. If I had to back one version of events over another, it is that Eastern will not be flying for KLM from this winter.

 

[pug]

Most likely that there's a state of denial in Humberside, I think, and the few who know are not being forthcoming with the news.

You've another poster here saying clearly that LBA this winter will be all KLM metal - I don't know them or the basis for their statement but their words left nothing to the imagination. You have Hop taking on a three aircraft wet-lease for KLM, and much chat that Eastern is on its way out.

I am sure that time will tell, but we can't both be right. If I had to back one version of events over another, it is that Eastern will not be flying for KLM from this winter.

One of the people I talk to would know because it’s their job to. So either they aren’t telling me something or it’s BS, given the recruitment that is happening right now including the investment in more Type Ratings which is significant then this would not happen if there was an inkling of the contract being on shakey ground. Of course it could be that they’re bringing Hop in to take up the additional work that they wanted Eastern to run and that would make sense, or simply adding more fat into it, but it makes little sense having an overseas operator take on the routes when the current HUY/MME/BRS seems to be working quite well with HUY seeing some of its busiest months in 20 years on the route whilst Eastern are running it. Clearly they haven’t had the impact on customer confidence that some on here and elsewhere were hoping for.

Wishful thinking again I feel which is a great shame given I know personally some of the people who would be directly affected by such an event so it’s not nice to read.

 

[White Heather]

It's clear that KLM Cityhopper was having issues, even with Eastern operating on several routes. I recently saw an article stating that the union that KLM CH crews are in had agreed a deal with the airline, enabling the them to bring in more aircraft. Perhaps these Hop aircraft are what that was referring to?

Perhaps, these Hop aircraft are as well as Eastern, not instead of? Perhaps these Hop aircraft will now operate on routes in Europe previously covered by KLM CH themselves, freeing up their own equipment to go back on routes such as LBA, given Eastern are seemingly struggling to recruit, whilst Eastern continue on the likes of BRS, MME and HUY?

 

[Starflyer]

Wishful thinking again I feel which is a great shame given I know personally some of the people who would be directly affected by such an event so it’s not nice to read.

It's not wishful thinking - far from it. Where people's jobs are involved, it wouldn't be right to say "I bet you I'm right" as others have a great deal more at stake. But I've strong factual reasons to be absolutely certain that this is what's happening.

 

[pug]

It's not wishful thinking - far from it. Where people's jobs are involved, it wouldn't be right to say "I bet you I'm right" as others have a great deal more at stake. But I've strong factual reasons to be absolutely certain that this is what's happening.

So you’re saying it’s happening and Eastern aren’t aware? Ok I’ll file that with some of the posts elsewhere that said the same thing a year ago almost to the date. If I indeed that is what’s happening then it’ll be a tragic day for U.K. regional aviation. You may not like the way they operate, but it’s your choice not to use them. For anyone trying to get a break in the flying careers they are and have for almost 30 years been a stepping stone and the flight crew that come through eastern are held in high regard amongst the mainline airlines. If that stops then it will be a massive shame for the U.K. industry even if people can’t agree with their practices (and I know full well how much of a chaotic operation it is!). So I truly hope you are wrong,

i like the way that eastern keeping klm fully informed of their inability to actually crew the wetlease operation they have signed an agreement to actually run is a positive - as if it was possible they could have said nothing and just kept cancelling

unless there was no other option available, i wouldn't touch eastern with a barge pole. as i said before, they are a complete basket case and keep proving it for all to see.

Yet they’ve managed to continuously operate for nearly 30 years. This is the thing, I think we all know if RL gets bored he could pull the plug on it and that’ll be the end of it, but as yet he hasn’t and word is that he’s not really that fussed about doing so any time soon either. Of course you’d say he would say that, but one of the people I talk to actually knows what they’re on about and is very candid when it hits the fan and RL is wandering about telling everyone he’ll see them in the job centre if they don’t get their act together. Toxic? Absolutely but I sense naivety if people haven’t witnessed this type of behaviour at far more successful operators.

You say it’s a ‘positive’. I say no it’s not, not at all. What it does say is that KLM and Eastern are both having trouble crewing aircraft that literally nobody seems to want to fly. Eastern are one of only three E-jet operators in the U.K., the others being Cityflyer and Titan. So I’m sure it’s been a reluctant partnership (for KLM) with little other option and given the challenges for both parties I would say it’s a bit more positive that Eastern have pushed back on more aggressive expansion on the U.K. network rather than taking on the work and realising later that it’s not going to be possible. They have managed to at least take up some of the capacity and have appeared to have done so pretty well considering most people seem to think they’re a shambles. Funny that.

I know of one major airline that wet leases aircraft from a company that are a complete and utter CRM nightmare, but continue they do. It’s endemic and unfortunately it’s tough for these smaller operators to even tread water. But they’re a necessary evil and i fear the day they disappear.

 

[Starflyer]

So you’re saying it’s happening and Eastern aren’t aware? Ok I’ll file that with some of the posts elsewhere that said the same thing a year ago almost to the date. If I indeed that is what’s happening then it’ll be a tragic day for U.K. regional aviation.

As I said, our standpoints here are so completely far apart that time will be the only decider as to who is right. I believe Eastern are aware but I suspect that the seismic nature of this news in relation to the organisation means that they're simply saying nothing until they have worked out how to deal with it.

 

[KARFA]

personally i do think they need to go bust and i do not think it does uk aviation industry for them to keep hobbling on. i certainly do not think it will be a tragic day when they fold. what has diplomatically call a "stepping stone", others might call a place to get a first job to get in the industry since you need to find some place to start, and which you try and leave asap once you have some experience.

no airline, or company in general, has a right to continue existing. eastern have had a long period to sort themselves out. i don't see why an airline that continues to be a shambles should somehow be kept going.

if i worked for eastern i would want to get out asap, and if i remained despite the very clear problems, i would only have myself to blame if they went bust and i no longer had a job. i wish folks would stop trying to romanticise employment here and in general - your love of your employer only goes as far as they are willing to be on the same page as you in terms of how they behave and whether they reward you fairly. sometimes you and your employer drift away from each other and quite clearly no longer have the same values, goals, or intent. if you are not in a position to change how your employer acts, the logical answer is to leave. you do yourself or your employer no favours by continuing to stay.

sorry this is harsh, but i am not in the business of saying things just to make people feel warm and fuzzy.

 

[SierraHotel]

Survival of the fittest! Natural selection. Call it what you Sentiment should not play a part.

 

[pug]

personally i do think they need to go bust and i do not think it does uk aviation industry for them to keep hobbling on. i certainly do not think it will be a tragic day when they fold. what has diplomatically call a "stepping stone", others might call a place to get a first job to get in the industry since you need to find some place to start, and which you try and leave asap once you have some experience.

no airline, or company in general, has a right to continue existing. eastern have had a long period to sort themselves out. i don't see why an airline that continues to be a shambles should somehow be kept going.

if i worked for eastern i would want to get out asap, and if i remained despite the very clear problems, i would only have myself to blame if they went bust and i no longer had a job. i wish folks would stop trying to romanticise employment here and in general - your love of your employer only goes as far as they are willing to be on the same page as you in terms of how they behave and whether they reward you fairly. sometimes you and your employer drift away from each other and quite clearly no longer have the same values, goals, or intent. if you are not in a position to change how your employer acts, the logical answer is to leave. you do yourself or your employer no favours by continuing to stay.

sorry this is harsh, but i am not in the business of saying things just to make people feel warm and fuzzy.

Tell that to all the pilot recruiters at Easyjet, Jet2, Wizzair, BA etc.. Could they still recruit without people coming through Eastern? Yes of course, and maybe they’ll change their practices in light of things if Eastern are another one to go to the wall. But if you’re in the fortunate position (as I am to be fair) to be in a company that’s doing well and through which influence is possible then great, but don’t then judge those who for whatever reason stay at a company like eastern. It’s not about being warm and fuzzy it’s about providing opportunities where they wouldn’t otherwise exist and if RL wants to keep it running then so be it and it’s not our places to judge on that.

But here’s the thing, it’s a U.K. company providing uk opportunities that will otherwise, if the Hop story is correct, be taken over by a non uk company for which there is little opportunity for UK pilots or engineers to work for. If the market forces them out then fair enough as there’s just a functioning market where they’ll go to the strongest operator. But we have had people on this forum wishing for failure from the moment they found out that Eastern would be taking on the contract and frankly I find that disgusting! There are a lot of people with a lot at stake here who don’t simply have the luxury of ‘moving on’. These are people who don’t yet have the requisite experience to go elsewhere, who will be stuck with a rating that is useless. There’ll be people out of jobs that may not for whatever reason be able to move on to other things.

If people think the bottom end of this industry is squeaky clean then I’ve got a bridge to sell them. Perhaps if you are working in it you’ve been lucky, but believe me there are FAR worse operators than Eastern out there, they just maybe don’t fly passengers around.

Like I say though, one of the people I speak to there would tell me if they knew it was ending, they’re one of the people looking to leave anyway. The fact they haven’t either means they aren’t aware or that it’s rubbish. I’m sure as time ticks on we will find out one way or another but I’m honestly astounded at the clear glee over this possible news. It doesn’t get away from the fact either that they’re HUY, MME and BRS bases have been doing well which is why it would be a surprise to me if they lose the contract entirely in favour of a non uk based wet lease arrangement unless there has been a major falling out between the two parties.

 

[Starflyer]

These are people who don’t yet have the requisite experience to go elsewhere, who will be stuck with a rating that is useless. There’ll be people out of jobs that may not for whatever reason be able to move on to other things.

I’m sure as time ticks on we will find out one way or another but I’m honestly astounded at the clear glee over this possible news. It doesn’t get away from the fact either that they’re HUY, MME and BRS bases have been doing well which is why it would be a surprise to me if they lose the contract entirely in favour of a non uk based wet lease arrangement unless there has been a major falling out between the two parties.

Cor blimey - where to start!

Before the Eastern agreement, these UK-AMS routes were being flown by KLC aircraft and crews. Yes, they are short of both as a result of the PW engine issues on the E2 and the parent company's pilot recruitment. Isn't it a bit of a stretch to portray something that's only lasted for 18 months as being integral to the structure and future UK aviation? The time for that sentiment / battle (as you wish) here was surely when KLM closed KLM UK. Arguably they shouldn't have done, but trying to reposition Eastern in Air UK's shadow as the essential UK feeder to Amsterdam is a bit like some stand-up comedian duo today laying claim to Morecambe & Wise's legacy.

I can also see KLM and Air France's collective unions - which are a force that has dictated much of history, including the closure of KLM UK - strongly pushing for KLC to use Hop E190s. They jointly control the pilot contracts there versus continued use of Eastern E190s on which they don't. I can't say whether that's a factor or not, but it's a point with which I think you'd be hard pushed to disagree.

For whatever reason, I am told KLM has taken the decision to use the Hop! aircraft. I've every reason to believe what I'm hearing, given where this news is coming from. And I think the decision now is not due to yesterday's performance or the day before's, but issues which have been building way back and where it's taken KLM some time to put an alternative in place. It now has.

I think it may be difficult to paint an E190 rating as worthless. BA CityFlyer wouldn't agree, for one. Titan - if they wish to grow their fleet from the current single aircraft - probably wouldn't either. For those pilots with a J41 rating, you do have an absolutely valid point though.

 

[Bigman]

As someone who was made redundant 3 times over my career, the idea that the people on the ground know what is happening doesn't wash with me. Big surprise on all 3 occasions which resulted in walk outs to the pub in tears

 

[Stagman]

Hop aren't operating to the UK flights. Has anyone tried looking on KLM's website.

I have looked for Tuesday 11th November.

KLM Hop (just looked at French Airports)
Bordeaux (3 out of 4 flights), Lyon (3 out of 4 flights), Nantes (3 out of 3 flights) & Toulouse (3 out of 3 flights).

KLM German Airways operating some flights to UK:
Aberdeen, London City & Southampton

All other UK flights showing as KLM/ CityHopper operated.

No UK flights are currently showing as HOP operated.

Like I said further up the thread. Last year it wasn't till about September time that UK flights started showing as Eastern operated for the winter timetable.