Route Development & Rumours

[Ray Finkle]

It's been a bit of time since I've heard any rumours of routes to start soon? Is there anything that anyone can share?

Hainan have been on a 'fact finding' visit in regards to a Beijing service. We apparently came pretty close to securing something not too long back but it wasn't to be (and no George Osbourne wasn't involved this time as far as I'm aware ). A case of watch this space.

Cathay have been in talks over a service to Hong Kong. I have a feeling this may be a medium term one though.

Finnair as above.

Growth to India was apparently not too far away but that was a while ago and it seems to have all gone quiet since. Hopefully bubbling away in the background.

New winter easyjet routes out in the next couple of weeks, hopefully something for BHX.

We've had Nick Barton suggesting that there is appetite amongst the airlines for a service to the USA but not the aircraft. I think he said 2-3 years away?

Then we have Qatar applying for 2x daily slots, hopefully they'll actually take some of them up and increase, even if it's 10/11x weekly.

 

[Deleted member 8277]

We've had Nick Barton suggesting that there is appetite amongst the airlines for a service to the USA but not the aircraft. I think he said 2-3 years away?

Not that old chestnut from Dick Barton. I don't buy it, if there was profit to be made from the service then surely an airline would release an aircraft from a less profitable route to make more money.

 

[jfy1999]

Not that old chestnut from Dick Barton. I don't buy it, if there was profit to be made from the service then surely an airline would release an aircraft from a less profitable route to make more money.

or it could be that they are waiting because they would have a better chance of making a profit on more “thin” routes once they no longer have to exclusively rely on aging 757s and can deploy A321neo’s instead?

 

[gulftraveller]

or it could be that they are waiting because they would have a better chance of making a profit on more “thin” routes once they no longer have to exclusively rely on aging 757s and can deploy A321neo’s instead?

Could well be. But once they have the neos there will be a long list of destinations for them. It will depend how far down the list the likes of BHX are. No doubt it will come eventually.

The idea on other threads that these aircraft will be the answer to TATL ambitions from much smaller regional airports is just wishful thinking.

 

[TM3]

yes i am aware of the entry requirements to HK.

i don't understand why it is any easier for a UK passport holder to go to HK first then on to China as opposed to going to China direct. the entry requirements for a UK passport holder for China are identical in both situations.

Not the case, if you transit through to a 3rd country (ie a different to the one you entered from) you can benefit from 144 hours visa free https://www.china-briefing.com/news...-transit-policy-for-foreigners-who-can-apply/

It's not exclusive to Hong Kong but Hong Kong is probably best to make use of it due to extensive 3 stop China itineraries available through HKG.

Hong Kong is also a convenient city to stop due to same time zone, shorter flights to China. Some business with Chinese companies can be done from Hong Kong anyway, it's certainly a good (and esaier) place to get advice if planning to do business in China.

 

[KARFA]

Not the case, if you transit through to a 3rd country (ie a different to the one you entered from) you can benefit from 144 hours visa free https://www.china-briefing.com/news...-transit-policy-for-foreigners-who-can-apply/

It's not exclusive to Hong Kong but Hong Kong is probably best to make use of it due to extensive 3 stop China itineraries available through HKG.

Hong Kong is also a convenient city to stop due to same time zone, shorter flights to China. Some business with Chinese companies can be done from Hong Kong anyway, it's certainly a good (and esaier) place to get advice if planning to do business in China.

yes i am very well aware of the TWOV provisions, i used them twice this year. i have also previously got visas for China trips.

however your suggestion is that
(1) a UK passport holder needs a visa for China, so direct routes to China are not necessarily as viable as they might be
(2) CX can benefit as you can enter China from HK and therefore make use of TWOV.

Well (1) is no different now compared to pre-covid, the same visa is needed now compared to pre covid. If people are not going to China now it isn't because it has become more difficult, it is quite simply because demand is lower. Providing more complex routings via HKG just so you can use TWOV isn't going to magically change that.

Also using (2) you can't just return to HK. so a BHX-HKG-PVG-HKG-BHX routing (i.e. something which plays to CX/HKG as a hub) would be ineligible. You would have to do BHX-HKG-PVG-BHX/LHR which CX could only serve in one direction, or go to another country between after so BHX-HKG-PVG-HND-LHR, or BHX-HKG-PVG-HND-HKG-LHR. This is hardly a great incentive for CX to start a route to HKG, and most passengers who want to go to China are not going to the effort of making more complicated bookings and would just get a visa so they can go direct.

in addition, the main regional commercial hub is very much moving away from HK and towards Singapore these days anyway. You would be better off trying to attract SQ if you wanted a link to the far east.

So frankly i don't see an opportunity for CX to operate to BHX if one main reason is to serve China.

 

[TM3]

If I get a 2 year visa for China I have to pay £150, send off my passport and attend the visa processing centre in London to have my fingerprints taken.

There is also a lot of extra paperwork that goes with that, sometimes a letter of invitation, usually you have to declare your first itinerary with hotels etc. (although once you have no one asks the next time).

They can also come back and ask more questions after your initial application has been submitted.

144 hours is 6 days, it's is enough to for a week's work in China or a long weekend in a city like Shanghai.

The clock also doesn't start ticking until you've entered the PRC so I can arrive at Hong Kong, get a good night's sleep in a hotel and be on another short haul flight to whichever Chinese city I need to go to in the morning. I can (and do sometimes) have a whole weekend in Hong Kong as there is plenty to do there.

I've had the visa twice, both times my journey could not have been accomodated by the visa free period.

The only city Hainan's route would be better for in China is Beijing, and they you don't get the visa waiver so you have to factor in all the faff of getting a visa.

Hong Kong is actually better located, as a hub, for most of the big cities in China you are likely to travel to, than Beijing.

In any event HK has much bigger demand for passenger travel from the UK than Beijing or any other Chinese city so logically it doesn't make a lot of sense for Beijing to be added at BHX before HKG unless there are some specific large cargo contracts involved.

Singapore sees even more demand that HK from the UK but as a local hub for China it's not really useful to me as SIN-PEK is more than 6 hrs, so another long haul flight, may aswell fly Emirates through DXB.

 

[KARFA]

You must be doing something dodgy if you have had them come back and ask additional questions after you have submitted your application

honestly tho, most people going for work are not going to be doing complicated itineraries just to get TWOV, the extra flights cost more than any saving for your CN visa!

Business travel to China is still significantly down compared to pre covid anyway. Tourism to China is still a minority sport, not helped by their increasing restrictions on internet usage which leaves you feeling cutwhen there. Getting a vpn to work is becoming an increasing challenge.

HK demand itself is still down as well. I can only see it going one way based on what China is doing to the place as well.

 

[TM3]

It's not a complicated itinerary though.

All you have to do is leave the airport in Hong Kong and go back in again on your way out and you qualify, you don't have to pay for any extra flights. Even if you did it's still cheaper.

It doesn't even have to be Hong Kong, you can do it in Germany, but Hong Kong is better as you are nearly there.

It's not just the face value cost of the visa itself it's the travel to London and my time...

At the end of the day anyone's application can get bounced back, it's just down to luck, they wanted extra clafication on my itinerary, there was nothing missing and I already paid for a pre-application check.

HK demand has only just started to bounce after COVID, it's still right up there with the biggest cities in the world for passenger demand and I don't see that changing dramatically.

China is hardly in decline though, however I agree it's no Tenerife in terms of tourist demand.

 

[KARFA]

It's not a complicated itinerary though.

All you have to do is leave the airport in Hong Kong and go back in again on your way out and you qualify, you don't have to pay for any extra flights. Even if you did it's still cheaper.

as noted tho, you can’t return directly to Hong Kong as that would mean you were ineligible for TWOV. So yes it is complicated. You can’t do something like LHR-PVG-HKG-PEK-LHR either unless you have an actually stay in HK, the Chinese immigration are not going to give you TWOV if you are only in HKG for a few hours before flying back.

it is clearly extra flights doing
LHR-PVG-LHR
vs
LHR-HKG-PVG-LHR or LHR-HKG-PVG-HND-LHR

 

[TM3]

Yes you can return to Hong Kong, you just aren't supposed to leave the airport and go out into Hong Kong.

(Not saying I recommend this) but even if you did, what can they do about it, you have already left.

 

[KARFA]

Yes you can return to Hong Kong, you just aren't supposed to leave the airport and go out into Hong Kong.

(Not saying I recommend this) but even if you did, what can they do about it, you have already left.

Sorry, you are suggesting you can do LHR-PVG-HKG-PEK-LHR? With only a few hours in HK? Leaving the airport and re-entering straight away isn’t going to help you. You must think the Chinese immigration are particularly stupid if you think they will let you back in on the HKG-PEK flight after that.

 

[TM3]

Do you get Hong Kong isn't in China for the purposes of this visa waiver?

 

[KARFA]

Do you get Hong Kong isn't in China for the purposes of this visa waiver?

Oh dear.

Do you get that Chinese immigration is very alive to people doing exactly that kind of thing (whether it’s HKG, GMP, or some other nearby third country) in order to try and play the rules? Your third country visit can’t be for a few hours and coming straight back to China.

Doing LHR-PVG-HKG-PEK-LHR where your visit to HKG is for a few hours won’t work, and you will find you are denied TWOV when you try returning to China at PEK on the same day you left from PVG. Leaving HKG airport for a few hours rather than staying airside doesn’t change anything.

honestly I can’t think of a more dumb choice of county to try and play games with for immigration.

Anyway, I think we have done this to death now. I am happy to leave it to others to decide whether the whole premise for your attraction of CX on the basis of serving China is a realistic option.

 

[TM3]

Do you get Hong Kong isn't in China for the purposes of this visa waiver?

Straightforward question.

Sorry, you are suggesting you can do LHR-PVG-HKG-PEK-LHR? With only a few hours in HK? Leaving the airport and re-entering straight away isn’t going to help you. You must think the Chinese immigration are particularly stupid if you think they will let you back in on the HKG-PEK flight after that.

Yes, you can do this itinerary, within the 144 hr TWOV, why wouldn't you be able to?

PS - no need for the patronising tone, you asked a question and I answered it.

 

[KARFA]

Straightforward question.

Yes China is a third country, so LHR-PVG-HKG is fine, you will get a TWOV sticker on arrival at PVG. If you come back to China again after a day or two in HK, so for example HKG-PEK 2 days later, it will give rise to a new TWOV sticker and a further 144 hr stay as long as your subsequent PEK-LHR flight or to any other third country is within that 144 hours of course.

Yes, you can do this itinerary, within the 144 hr TWOV, why wouldn't you be able to?

PS - no need for the patronising tone, you asked a question and I answered it.

I don’t think you understand the point here. HK is a third country. What you cannot do a splash and dash in a third country (whatever that country is) and come straight back to China on the same day expecting to get a new TWOV. You will not be given a second TWOV on a same day return to China from the third country. Your third country trip cannot be for a few hours to try and reset the clock. You really don’t understand the rules if you think this is ok. As I said, Chinese authorities are very aware if you try and do that, and when you try and re-enter on the same day you departed to HKG you will not get a second TWOV on your return to China.

 

[TM3]

That's not how it works.

Once you have transited out it starts again. There is no such restriction than stops you from transiting again on another 144hr TWOV.

 

[KARFA]

Having done it only a few months ago I am well aware of how it works, and how it doesn’t

I give up. It’s like talking to the village idiot.

 

[TM3]

Your checkin airline in HKG will check you have an onbound ticket to a 3rd country airport and if you do you can board. Chinese immigration will do the same check when you arrive.

There is no check as to when you left last time or how long you were out of the country.

You can use the TWOV programme as many times as you like, there are no restrictions on the number of entries, what you have to do is leave to a 3rd country within the timeframe they allow you.

Having done it only a few months ago I am well aware of how it works, and how it doesn’t

I give up. It’s like talking to the village idiot.

You were refused access for trying to do that?

Having done it only a few months ago I am well aware of how it works, and how it doesn’t

I give up. It’s like talking to the village idiot.

A bit surprising when yesterday you said you didn't know about it.

i don't understand why it is any easier for a UK passport holder to go to HK first then on to China as opposed to going to China direct. the entry requirements for a UK passport holder for China are identical in both situations.

 

[Kevin Farnell]

Just when I thought this tedious discussion had finished -

Anyway, I think we have done this to death now.

It continues.
If you do want to continue the discussion, can you please avoid personal insults such as -

I give up. It’s like talking to the village idiot.