Birmingham: New Route Development & Rumours

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Re: Route Development

I think a China link to either MAN or BHX is going to be a very interesting one to watch.

Both airports have very compelling cases to be served, so, its not as simple as BHX having the extra bit of tarmac to play with.

BHX has the local manufacturing, but now MAN and the local area has now gained just as much funding from China, probably more. MAN also has the larger population and that population also has a higher propensity to fly back.

It will also ultimately be a case of which route the Chinese want to open first. BHX has the slightly larger demand for Shanghai due to manufacturing, but MAN has the larger populations to Guangzhou, Beijing and Chengdu. It also has the largest Hong Kong demand in Europe outside London.

Its also worth noting that Air China already hold the rights to 7 weekly flights PEK-MAN at the China end since 2009, and Hainan also recently given the same rights (this year).

Its going to be interesting, and I'm sure both airports will be fighting tooth and nail over this.
 
Re: Route Development

Russian airline Orenair have been granted permission to fly Ekaterinburg-BHX weekly using a 772, they also got weekly to London and 3x weekly to Amritsar so it's clear what market they'd be aiming at. With Air India back and doing so well and Turkmenistan taking what's left I don't think for one minute this will happen, if it does I reckon they'll be added to the list along with Aerosvit, Armavia, Mahan, Air Slovakia.......
 
Re: Route Development

Ray Finkle said:
Russian airline Orenair have been granted permission to fly Ekaterinburg-BHX weekly using a 772, they also got weekly to London and 3x weekly to Amritsar so it's clear what market they'd be aiming at. With Air India back and doing so well and Turkmenistan taking what's left I don't think for one minute this will happen, if it does I reckon they'll be added to the list along with Aerosvit, Armavia, Mahan, Air Slovakia.......

Is there even demand for a flight to Russia? They may as well do away with the Amritsar leg as barely anyone's going to use it now Air India's in place, proven by how poorly Turkmenistan is performing now. A 772 seems too much a stretch too. If it does happen, I expect that the Amritsar leg will do rather poorly.
 
Re: Route Development

We need to get this thread merged with the other thread with the same name (if possible).
 
Re: Route Development

Hassaan13 said:
We need to get this thread merged with the other thread with the same name (if possible).

Done.

Hassaan13 said:
Is there even demand for a flight to Russia?

I reckon with the right airline a couple of times per week to Moscow could do well, Ekaterinburg not so much. This isn't aimed at the Russian market though it's aimed at filling a weekly 772 with people connecting to Amritsar. Many have tried something similar and failed, Armavia, Aerosvit, Air Slovakia, Mahan Air....the list goes on, Uzbekistan did well for a few years but even they gave up, Turkmenistan are the only survivors but the less said about them the better. I'd be very surprised if this ever started and wouldn't give it long if it did.
 
Re: Route Development

Sorry Hassan, I think you will be disappointed with todays news.

Qatar have today announced Edinburgh, starting 5th May with the B787.

I wouldn't be surprised if Air India have put paid to their BHX hopes and linking through to Armitsar.
 
Re: Route Development

user001 said:
Sorry Hassan, I think you will be disappointed with todays news.

Qatar have today announced Edinburgh, starting 5th May with the B787.

I wouldn't be surprised if Air India have put paid to their BHX hopes and linking through to Armitsar.

I'd be lying if I wasn't a bit disappointed. They were really hoping to capitalise on the ATQ market out of BHX weren't they? Rather than making use of the far east connections and what not. I suppose there is a bit of reasoning as to why they have gone with EDI instead - I think they just waited too long. Maybe at some point in the future, when the runway extension is open.
 
Re: Route Development

Qatar haven't gone to EDI 'instead', they clearly stated there would be three UK destinations so either EDI or GLA was always going to be one of them, now we know it's EDI. I have my own opinions on why I don't think we will see Qatar anytime soon but today's announcement has nothing to do with BHX.
 
Re: Route Development

Qatar haven't gone to EDI 'instead', they clearly stated there would be three UK destinations so either EDI or GLA was always going to be one of them, now we know it's EDI. I have my own opinions on why I don't think we will see Qatar anytime soon but today's announcement has nothing to do with BHX.

But you do have to admit, Qatar certainly made it seem BHX was the next UK destination, and whilst a 3rd UK point was not specifically named, for EDI to steam through with a Qatar flight after BHX was declared pretty much a dead cert, does make you wonder what exactly happened.

In terms of route development, I wonder what BHX bosses will make of EDI's expansion.

The runway extension has long been heralded as 'levelling the playing field' with regards to flights, to see EDI take the much sought after Chicago link, the Philidelphia link which only lasted 1 season at BHX, extra flights to Toronto which seems to be in demand at BHX and now Qatar, that makes 4 destinations BHX would love. I wonder if a trip up to EDI to see how they did it could be in order, especially now Air Blue have gone after much trumpeting from anna.aero.
 
Re: Route Development

user001 said:
In terms of route development, I wonder what BHX bosses will make of EDI's expansion.

The runway extension has long been heralded as 'levelling the playing field' with regards to flights, to see EDI take the much sought after Chicago link, the Philidelphia link which only lasted 1 season at BHX, extra flights to Toronto which seems to be in demand at BHX and now Qatar, that makes 4 destinations BHX would love. I wonder if a trip up to EDI to see how they did it could be in order, especially now Air Blue have gone after much trumpeting from anna.aero.

I'd find it hard to argue with any of that. If Air Blue stopping is due to the runway length then it makes you wonder why the sums were not done beforehand, it is only suspended at the moment but I don't expect them back, I have a feeling they will start a London airport instead. I'm not surprised about EDI getting a seasonal ORD and PHL, Scotland's capital city gets a large amount of summer inbound tourists from America so as summer only they should do well. US saw very good loads from BHX including the front cabin but yet they said the yields weren't there, they never carried any cargo at all which is vital to a long haul routes profitability, this says to me they never really took the route seriously in the first place.

Where this leaves BHX? It seems the route development team have been desperately trying to drum up some long haul business to coincide with the runway extension, I wonder if during that time they have taken their eye off the bread and butter key European routes. Ryanair stagnant with any new route replacing another, Flybe facing the possibility of BHX losing services, by all accounts Monarch were close to basing a 10th unit at BHX this year but now the Midlands is spilt with EMA and nothing at all from Thomson or Thomas Cook, indeed the only new service for next year is Monarch to Hurghada, not even a new destination (incidentally I think Istanbul was the last one of those back in 2009). Madrid, Lisbon, Budapest, Oslo, Warsaw, Prague.... all destinations unserved from BHX yet all available from the likes of EMA and BRS and whilst on the subject of EMA it consistently carried more pax to the likes of Faro, Malaga, Alicante and Palma this year. Easyjet recently reiterated that at the prices BHX charge there will never be a base. Jet2 also spoke to BHX and were apparently very keen initially, from what I hear they then suddenly got cold feet, was that when they were made aware of the fees? Ryanair once said they would open any route from Manchester if the price was right, I'm sure that must stand for any base? Are BHX going all out to secure something from Norwegian? Mr Kehoe seemed quite proud of his 'rack rate' but if BHX aren't prepared to reduce fees to a more realistic level that meets the needs of the industry during these tough times I can't see where any expansion will come from, because time and time again we just hear that they can't get the yields out of BHX.

As for long haul? BHX long haul IT offering is woeful, Orlando at least deserves more than a once weekly seasonal flight, in fact in the last consultative committee meeting it was mentioned that Thomson long haul flights usually go out full and could there be any more capacity added. Thomas Cook have touted for long haul flights, I bet BHX have made an offer but I bet it's not a competitive one. The US is a tough one for BHX, with the frequencies and lower prices of LHR an hour away it will always struggle. I'd like to think with the right offer another link could be sustained, Delta to ATL would be my preferred option, will that offer ever happen though. Canada has a seasonal market with Toronto load factors at 98% but Air Transat have said BHX are lucky to still have them as it's the only destination with only one route, when asked why the don't add more the reply was because we can put two planes into Manchester for the price of one at Birmingham. At a time where airline purse strings are being pulled ever tighter BHX just isn't making itself an attractive option, especially for the thinner long haul routes. Qatar were most likely ready to start BHX, and may still do, but with Turkish growing and Air India now on the scene things may well have changed, there is also Emirates lurking with a third daily service ready to spoil the party like they did with Gulf Air back in 05.

In terms of route development, I wonder what BHX bosses will make of EDI's expansion.

Probably not bothered after Mr Kehoe's reported £50k per year pay rise.

The runway extension has long been heralded as 'levelling the playing field' with regards to flights

The runway extension has been described as everything from a level playing field to the answer to the UK's capacity problems but to me actions speak louder than words and so far we've seen nothing but the outside chance of Biman transiting to JFK. Although it's really a long term project I do hope they have something lined up as if not then it seems a lot of wasted effort that could have been better used elsewhere. They wanted a link to the US and a link to China lined up. The US seems to have failed, although the spin will no doubt try and make out Biman to JFK as it, they have been to China and initially spoke to four airlines, they have since been back to speak to one particular airline a further three times with it mentioned that a service would be four times weekly rising to daily in time, so make of that what you will.

I do feel for the route development team, they must wine and dine potential airlines, spend hours explaining the virtues of BHX and the positives of the area, put so much effort into getting them interested, then the route agreement talks start and they have to say by the way, this is how much it will cost you to fly here, it must be so frustrating. I bet there has been numerous clouds of dust and an airline representative shaped hole in the boardroom door 🙄
 
Re: Route Development

Hi Ray,

If Air Blue stopping is due to the runway length then it makes you wonder why the sums were not done beforehand, it is only suspended at the moment but I don't expect them back

Whilst we may never know the real reason, I find it incredibly hard to believe the runway was the issue. Like you say, surely they knew all the details before the service started. The only other explanation could be that they started in anticipation of the runway getting longer, but maybe they could not sustain the flight in the meantime in its current form. Like you say, will be interesting to see if they return, once a carrier gets burned, its a long slog to tempt them back (look how long it took Air India to come back).

nothing but the outside chance of Biman transiting to JFK

And as said, it will all end in tears. Either the flight will not run full stop, or, they will cut and run. They have done this to MAN 2/3 times no so no wonder MAN made them an offer they could refuse. If I had a customer that constantly messed around ending contracts, Id tell them to sling their hook too, no matter how much bragging rights a B777 to DAC/JFK brings.

I do feel for the route development team, they must wine and dine potential airlines, spend hours explaining the virtues of BHX and the positives of the area, put so much effort into getting them interested, then the route agreement talks start and they have to say by the way, this is how much it will cost you to fly here, it must be so frustrating.

And this is the crux of the argument. I know that EDI is a completely different market to BHX, but, it must be frustrating for Paul Kehoe and the team to do all this shouting and beating their chests on the rooftops of BHX, but after all this talk, to see EDI get not 1, but 4 routes they have made no secret of trying to attract, must deflate them slightly.

I do feel a little sorry for BHX too, after such a flurry of long haul news, it looks like they may end up with just the one (Air India) after all that.

As the runway extension open day looms closer, there must be some very bitten fingernails by now.....
 
Re: Route Development

Whilst we may never know the real reason, I find it incredibly hard to believe the runway was the issue. Like you say, surely they knew all the details before the service started. The only other explanation could be that they started in anticipation of the runway getting longer, but maybe they could not sustain the flight in the meantime in its current form. Like you say, will be interesting to see if they return, once a carrier gets burned, its a long slog to tempt them back (look how long it took Air India to come back).

I find it hard to believe the runway was an issue too and if it was then someone should be in the firing line as all the data is readily available. One conspiracy theory I've heard is MAG were less than impressed when they started at BHX and have offered them a too good to refuse deal to move to Stansted, possibly an overactive imagination somewhere. We'll see what happens over the next six months or so.

And this is the crux of the argument. I know that EDI is a completely different market to BHX, but, it must be frustrating for Paul Kehoe and the team to do all this shouting and beating their chests on the rooftops of BHX, but after all this talk, to see EDI get not 1, but 4 routes they have made no secret of trying to attract, must deflate them slightly.

I do feel a little sorry for BHX too, after such a flurry of long haul news, it looks like they may end up with just the one (Air India) after all that.

As the runway extension open day looms closer, there must be some very bitten fingernails by now.....

All the talk in the world won't get them anywhere, the easy part is getting an airline to show an interest in your airport, the hard part is striking a deal that in beneficial to BOTH parties then doing what it takes to help the route prosper. Of course we'll never know what goes on behind the scenes but on the face of it BHX just seem to say this is our price, pay it or go elsewhere.
 
Re: Route Development

One conspiracy theory I've heard is MAG were less than impressed when they started at BHX and have offered them a too good to refuse deal to move to Stansted, possibly an overactive imagination somewhere. We'll see what happens over the next six months or so.

Well its a wild theory but emotions regarding this route are running high on other forums so Ill take anything with a pinch of salt for now.

In terms of the theory itself, Air Blue had already stated their intention to serve London, so, unless any prospective flight uses the BHX times and numbers exactly, it will be hard to prove if STN comes at the expense of BHX, or, if it was a pre-planned flight anyway.
 
Re: Route Development

Generally speaking, I feel Air Blue have been getting far too adventurous. The move from A321 aircraft with a tech stop in Turkey to A340 was a big step to take for them. I think they're finding it harder than they first expected it to be and the service they've provided hasn't been an overwhelming improvement on the alternative PIA product.
 
Re: Route Development

Well its a wild theory but emotions regarding this route are running high on other forums so Ill take anything with a pinch of salt for now.

Yes I've noticed one or two threads turning rather silly, I think some perspective is needed. It's a new airline rather than one that has been established for years, it's only a twice weekly service and the route is still well covered elsewhere, as I've said losing any service is disappointing but this isn't the end of the world. I can only think that as there has been little to shout about at BHX for many years and people probably thought they were turning a corner, but as we know, BHX giveth with one hand and taketh away with the other.

I might start a book on how long Biman last 🙄

Generally speaking, I feel Air Blue have been getting far too adventurous. The move from A321 aircraft with a tech stop in Turkey to A340 was a big step to take for them. I think they're finding it harder than they first expected it to be and the service they've provided hasn't been an overwhelming improvement on the alternative PIA product.

Loads were excellent, the cargo hold carried as much as the runway would allow and although there were a few introductory offers fares seems roughly on par with MAN, the Air Blue statement sites a change in priority to expansion into Saudi, unfortunate but just one of those situations I guess.

As the runway extension open day looms closer, there must be some very bitten fingernails by now.....

I bet there must be else I imagine there will be a very low key opening.

It seems there will soon need to be a decision made by BHX about which direction they intend to go. I appreciate that it is a business and for any business the key is making a profit, something which Birmingham does very well, and not just for the shareholders huge bonuses, they also have a responsibility to the staff who are employed there, but, if they want this extension to be key to major passenger growth then they will have to find a way to meet airlines half way. Twinning of cities, memorandums of understanding, sister airports, getting chambers of commerce to bang on about how much demand is there and how a link is desperately needed mean nothing to potential new airlines, all they care about is will I make money and the right landing/handling package is a big part of that. For many years BHX has sat back with United going west, Emirates going East and the likes of Lufthansa, Air France/KLM, SAS, Brussels Airlines etc offering connections to wherever and watched the money roll in, are they happy to continue with a very stagnant but very profitable business model with the odd new route coming and going or are they going to change their ways and go out and do whatever it takes to secure the new services they want? Central government aren't going to make BHX an international hub, London will always be where it's at and relying on vocal support from elsewhere isn't going to work. If this runway extension really is to be the start of a massive growth of pax numbers then the BHX MO needs to change, sadly I fear the cash cow is just too tempting.
 
Re: Route Development

Ray,

I have to salute your posting, as on all the forums I meander through that feature BHX threads, you seem to be one of the most level headed posters I know.
More often than not, on other forums any form of criticism/honest debate is met with a kurt reply, especially if that post comes from an outsider. Yes there is a natural response to 'defend the home airport', but I have to say you are very balanced at taking the good with the bad. Long may I hope you continue to be as you are, as its nice to have a frank, honest discussion without the tittle tattle that comes with it.
 
Re: Route Development

Very informative post, Ray, and possibly your best on here. Don't want to embarrass you by saying it was possibly the most informative I've read on an aviation forum. 😉

There is some reasoning, I suppose, as to why long haul isn't working out well, and I think with BHX, given their track record, it's always best to start out small. They could have done the tech-stop in Turkey with Airblue if loads were really an issue. They became too confident. PIA might have managed fine when they started out on a 747 but there was virtually no other link to the Indian subcontinent back then. Their change in priority to Saudi sounds similar to Air India quitting BHX in favour of 'protecting' their LHR slots - BHX just isn't worthy to many businesses at the moment. It's not a case of 'it'll all change by the time the runway extension is open', a lot more work needs to be done. I'm not good with the financial aspect of things. It doesn't really make things look good for when Biman start - I expect there'll be low expectations...

Birmingham & Chicago may have become twin cities but I wouldn't expect a new, proper, link to the US for a long while. The airport's in an unfortunate position where airlines would easily dismiss it in favour of south/north (LHR/MAN) - an example being PIA moving all their transit flights to MAN when they seemed to work out fine here. The runway extension will allow for a level playing field - that's one positive. But at the same time it seems a bit lazy - in my eyes, some airlines don't take their BHX operations seriously. US Airways confidently arriving into BHX for the summer 2009 season, but despite good load factors, it wasn't profitable apparently, for whatever reason and I don't think the airline even seemed to ensure this happened to be the case. I don't think they took it seriously either.

I'm ready for someone to pick out all the faults in my post... 😆
 
Re: Route Development

No faults at all, you have your opinion and are perfectly entitled to post it on here, I look forward to reading them :hatsoff:

The only thing I'd take issue with is Air Blue loads, going by their statement this was never a factor, it's just an unfortunate change in priorities.
 
Re: Route Development

It just goes to show you, that if both Easyjet and Jet2 were very interested in coming to Birmingham Airport and Keogh has told them these ridicously high fees, what a golden opportunity he has missed out on filling all those unserved european destinations that will help plug the gap. In an recent interview " How are you going to attract new airlines for new passengers to use Birmingham Airport", his reply as need to get all the infrastructure right, before these airlines will want to come.". This is clearly coming from a man who has got no idea what hes talking about, and instead of attracting new business to the airport, hes frighterning it away insteadand not talking or negotiating properly and bringing those sky high fees down....Andyc
 

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