TheLocalYokel

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Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Manchester City, Manchester United and Tottenham are among 12 clubs who have agreed to join a new European Super League (ESL).
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/sport/football/56795811.amp

This idea has, rightly in my opinion, attracted almost universal condemnation. Brings back memories of the Packer controversy in cricket 40 years ago.

Below is a link to a rant by Gary Neville after a match yesterday at which he was a Sky match pundit. He says he is a Manchester United supporter of 40 years' standing (he also played for them of course) but is disgusted with them and thinks they and the other clubs involved should be docked Premier League points and relegated. That isn't going to happen of course - the lawyers are already rubbing their hands with glee - but the rant is from the heart, says what I think nearly all fans believe, and is in its own way extremely eloquent.

If anyone has eight or nine minutes to spare it's worth a look.

 

jfy1999

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as a (wavering) Manchester United fan, i feel that if the “big six” cannot be dissuaded from this by legal means, then the rest of the premier league teams should take matters into their own hands by going on strike. Preferably by refusing to play once on the pitch, as that would make the biggest statement - and hopefully most or all players from the “big six” would be honourable enough to get on board.

If matches involving the “big six” become non-spectacles - think West Germany vs Austria 1982 - premier league tv and ticket revenue should start to crash. Add a super league boycott into the mix and that would be the best way to hit the club owners where it hurts...
 

Jerry

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Below is a link to a rant by Gary Neville after a match yesterday at which he was a Sky match pundit.
I sympathise with what he says but I do kind of feel that English football has done this too itself. It's sold itself over the last 30 year's to the highest bidder. Premier league teams have become massive global brands and investments from rich companies and individuals from abroad who will want to maximise their investment and guaranteed European football does that. At the end he mentioned Liverpool, Manchester United and Arsenal and said he was disappointed in them in particular but all 3 are owned by Americans who see sport as a business and don't like what the romantic football fans like about football. Promotion relegation and qualifying for Europe. They see their teams as global clubs who should be playing the top teams week in week out.
 

Jerry

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as a (wavering) Manchester United fan, i feel that if the “big six” cannot be dissuaded from this by legal means, then the rest of the premier league teams should take matters into their own hands by going on strike. Preferably by refusing to play once on the pitch, as that would make the biggest statement - and hopefully most or all players from the “big six” would be honourable enough to get on board.

If matches involving the “big six” become non-spectacles - think West Germany vs Austria 1982 - premier league tv and ticket revenue should start to crash. Add a super league boycott into the mix and that would be the best way to hit the club owners where it hurts...
Tottenham have sacked Jose Mourinho because he refused to train the players over this today.
 

TheLocalYokel

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Is this not an aviation forum???????
That is certainly overwhelmingly the primary purpose of F4A.

However, we recognise that some members also enjoy discussing subjects away from aviation with people they have come to know through the website. On the other hand, there are also members who don't wish to be sidetracked from aviation which is why the non-aviation forums are clearly identified as such; for example:

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TheLocalYokel

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I sympathise with what he says but I do kind of feel that English football has done this too itself. It's sold itself over the last 30 year's to the highest bidder. Premier league teams have become massive global brands and investments from rich companies and individuals from abroad who will want to maximise their investment and guaranteed European football does that. At the end he mentioned Liverpool, Manchester United and Arsenal and said he was disappointed in them in particular but all 3 are owned by Americans who see sport as a business and don't like what the romantic football fans like about football. Promotion relegation and qualifying for Europe. They see their teams as global clubs who should be playing the top teams week in week out.
It's not just English clubs. The major teams in Spain and Italy have also joined in with clubs in other countries expected to follow suit. It's not the first time that breakaway moves have been mooted.

It's as much about who controls the game as money because if the 'big' clubs get their way they will control matters. Whether in England or across the major footballing countries of Europe, these clubs will then have carte blanche to tilt matters in their favour financially.

Last year Premier League clubs came up with project Big Picture where, in exchange for offering cash handouts to clubs further down the football pyramid, the number of Prem clubs would be reduced and the 'Big Six' clubs would be given voting rights on a range of issues connected with the running of the league. The EFL Cup and Community Shield would have been abolished. All this would free up time in midweek for the big clubs to play more lucrative European matches. There was huge opposition to the idea which went no further.

UEFA is currently going some way to appeasing these clubs by reforming the structure of the European Champions League with more clubs and more matches, ergo more money for the big clubs. Clearly this is not enough for these clubs who are now pushing for an even bigger share of the food bowl, and at a time when many lesser mortals of the football world are struggling to find any food at all.

Some commentators think this is really a move to push UEFA into offering yet more concessions to the fat cats.

Gary Neville made a supremely important point when he suggested that overseas owners don't understand the history and traditions of the game in this country which make it what it is. Owners, directors, players at any cub are just passing through, being caretakers for just a few years usually. Fans are fans of a club for life and are the lifeblood of the game. Without them it will whither and die as a great sport and spectacle.

The Big Six expect to continue playing in the Premier League although how midweek matches in league and cup will be managed if the middle of the week is taken up with the European Super League throughout the season is anyone's guess.

Threats to prevent players from competing in the World Cup or any other competitions under the control of FIFA/UEFA would doubtless result in years of litigation across various European countries. In cricket in the late 1970s the ICC and TCCB tried to ban players who had taken part in the 'rebel' Packer matches in Australia from playing test and county cricket. Some players took the cricketing authorities to the High Court in England claiming restraint of trade and won their case.

That led to an inevitable compromise between Packer (whose primary aim all along had been to secure live Australian test cricket rights for his tv channel) and the world cricketing authorities. No doubt in the end this will end in a similar fashion.
 

JENNYJET

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I am surprised people did not see this coming since a 'breakaway competition ' has been mooted for a long time. The Premier League has outgrown itself having screwed billions of £ out of TV companies and armchair fans alike and the money is running out. As this proposal is to run the Super League concurrently with domestic leagues, the only difficulties are with scheduling but the big 6 have vast squads with reserves but do the fans have the funds to continue with support at stadia plus European travel? What the other federations will do is to be determined but clubs anywhere cannot use the Civil Law service to rule on strictly football matters but they can use the CAS or Court for Arbitration in Sport should matters dictate such an action.

Personally, I would like to see a Euro Super League as an annual tournament by way of qualifying through domestic competition and NOT by right due to wealth or Stature of the clubs.

By all means rejig the domestic and Euro competitions but do not trash what already exists and what finds favour within the game. If Cheltenham Town or Forest Green can eventually qualify by merit in due course of time then I am all for a Super League. But it could have been handled better!
 

Kevin Farnell

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Personally, I think a lot of damage was done to English football with the creation of the Premier League. This created much more wealthy clubs in the top flight, whilst we have seen some clubs from the lower leagues cease to exist. The proposed European Super League would only make this discrepancy even greater. I'd like to see more of a fair distribution of wealth across the leagues (ban rich investors from ploughing millions into top clubs. and create a rule whereby clubs can only spend the revenue that the generate). On top of that, I'd like to see the abolition of the Premiership and go back to the old League 1, 2, 3 and 4 with each league playing the same number of games.
Going back to the ESL, how can it be a competitive league when it has clubs that are permanent members and cannot be relegated?

Kevin
 

TheLocalYokel

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Personally, I think a lot of damage was done to English football with the creation of the Premier League. This created much more wealthy clubs in the top flight, whilst we have seen some clubs from the lower leagues cease to exist. The proposed European Super League would only make this discrepancy even greater. I'd like to see more of a fair distribution of wealth across the leagues (ban rich investors from ploughing millions into top clubs. and create a rule whereby clubs can only spend the revenue that the generate). On top of that, I'd like to see the abolition of the Premiership and go back to the old League 1, 2, 3 and 4 with each league playing the same number of games.
Going back to the ESL, how can it be a competitive league when it has clubs that are permanent members and cannot be relegated?

Kevin
The main reason for the Premier League was, as we all know, money, particularly the television money that was being thrown around. It was also thought necessary in order to compete with the big Spanish and Italian clubs of that period where financial prudence is merely taken as lip service. If, as was happening particularly in Spain, the main clubs in those countries were allowed to spend and spend in order to achieve European success and the ultimate rewards that went with it then the major English clubs had to find a way to be at the top table, hence the Premier League.

In the ensuing years the Premier League has grown to dominate the game in England to the degree that it is an animal out of control with, as I mentioned earlier, the major clubs wanting even more of the action with their thus-far failed Big Picture scheme.

Rightly or wrongly some of the sports media are pointing the finger at the American owners of Liverpool, Manchester United and Arsenal as the 'English' drivers of the present proposals. They also own clubs in various major American sports where the concept of promotion and relegation is alien. To them 'ring fencing' of position is the natural order of things and they don't understand, or choose to ignore, the cultural differences in Britain when it comes to supporting a sports club, particularly football clubs.

Interestingly after this season the English Rugby Premiership is now embarking on a path of no relegation from it or promotion to it for the next few years. It's controversial within the sport and potentially denies aspirants from lower divisions the chance to reach the top league, although in rugby there aren't many clubs below the Premiership that have the necessary wherewithal in terms of finance and a suitable ground to make a serious tilt at the Prem anyway. My view is that it's protectionist and diminishes the interest in the Prem, and the Rugby Championship, if clubs are not playing for promotion or to avoid relegation.

It's not a new idea. Martin Johnson, former England captain, was suggesting ring-fencing of the Prem in his autobiography a decade and more ago.
 

JENNYJET

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I wonder how people will go with football, a city franchise model or an organic model like what exists today. The successful grow and generate prosperity and the poorly managed fall away. Operating solely upon generated revenues will hardly solve disparities because Manchester United or City could not prevent Bury FC ceasing to exist but Salford City could have if league rules permitted. Some clubs are vehicles of Sovereign Wealth Funds whilst others are the play things of individuals that operate sports businesses for profit. Emotional outbursts by politicians and administrators in Eufa or fifa probably will stop the current bandwagon with Chelsea FC apparently rowing back seeking the comfort of stability, but it has raised the issues of 'fair distribution ' of wealth that will haunt the game.
 

rollo

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Well it seems that didn't last long both Chelsea and Manchester City reported to be withdrawing with the rest of the Premier league clubs involved thinking about it.
 

Kevin Farnell

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The successful grow and generate prosperity and the poorly managed fall away.
In truth, those that attract wealthy businessmen willing to throw in many millions grow and therefore go on to prosper. Those who cannot attract multi millionaire's suffer, not through a lack of hard work or lack of loyal fan base but simply because of their geographical location.

Are you saying that Man City got where they are today simply by revenues generated and it has nothing to do with many millions ploughed into them a decade or so back?

Kevin
 

Kevin Farnell

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Well it seems that didn't last long both Chelsea and Manchester City reported to be withdrawing with the rest of the Premier league clubs involved thinking about it.
Hopefully, that's due to the power of the fans.
Football clubs are strange entities, in that they have to operate as businesses, but have lifelong loyal fans, who feel part of a family. You never see people wearing Tesco scarfs or Sainsbury's T-shirts (although I bet the companies would love it if they could generate that level of loyalty).

Kevin
 

JENNYJET

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As a United fan I have enjoyed the Ferguson Edwards era and the development of the stadium and support base and that period of success that attracted the Glazers. I have also noted the period of Allison and Swales at Maine Road and the period of the noisy neighbours before the Qatari or Emerati Royals got involved, not sure which , and the gifting of the stadium. Two different trajectories but success the result. The city of Manchester can support two fine teams and others like Stockport County Blackburn and Burnley nearby but their relative success, I cite Blackburn as former Premier champions, is not always fan generated.
 

JENNYJET

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Woodward going will open the Champagne bottles in some quarters but he is an accountant and has managed the Glazer generated debt pile and maintain healthy revenues. Executive Vice Chairman is a unique position that may disappear in favour of a CEO but second guessing American owners is never a good idea as Liverpool will attest.
 

JENNYJET

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Oh no it isn't, internal and media scrutiny will attempt to name culprits and demand resignations and/or dismissals. The instigator, the money men and the ones that talked to the media before the plans were ready or approved etc., More will follow when the Sunday papers begin dishing out! The European clubs may forge ahead and the current competitions may yet be wrecked!
 

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