Leeds Bradford Airport’s Expansion Plans Under Public Inquiry

[Aviador]

Anybody heard anything from the airport?

One of the articles states the airport are working with the council to come up with a solution. I still think a new planning application is inevitable.

 

[White Heather]

The council arent anti-airport though.

No, they're not, despite what some say. There are some within the council who are, undoubtedly opposed to the airport, as there will be in any council, but, for the umpteenth time, the council have approved every LBA planning application submitted since 1993, even after declaring a climate emergency and even despite all 5 Leeds Labour MPs opposing Project Sky and demanding the council reject it.

To summarise!

24H ops 1994 - approved.

Crescent infill terminal extension 2009 approved.

Terminal extension 2017 - approved.

Project Sky - new terminal & change of operating hours - approved.

Changes to the 2017 scheme as now being delivered - approved.

Anybody heard anything from the airport?

I have now written to Vince Hodder and Charles Johnson on behalf of the LBA Support Group. That was this morning. As yet, no reply, but I wouldn't expect one yet. Im sure they have plenty on their plate right now with the terminal work,stand construction, and now this.

 

[pug]

I've never worked in aviation and no idea how far ahead slots are allocated but here's a thought that may or may not work.
Given it's Jet2 who have the main issue here if they were to move their 6 to 8 am departures to between 10am and noon those aircraft would then potentially be setting off on their second flights between 7 and 9pm which potentially see them landing back at LBA just after 7am. I know logistically it would no doubt be impossible but such airports as PMI, TFS, ZTH, already accept middle of the night arrivals.
As examples tonight from Manchester there's a Tui departure to PMI at 2255, ZTH at 2325, and a Ryanair departure at 2115 to AGP. Ok, the PMI is due back just after 5am but the ZTH is not due back until 0750. Any Canary flights would definitely not be back before 7am.

Just a thought..............

Eurocontrol slots can be an issue too although admittedly at night it’s more than likely quiet. That said the airlines have to battle with aircraft utilisation, crew hours, customer satisfaction and of course slots at the other end. Some destination airports aren’t H24 so arriving at unusual times wouldn’t be possible. This will pose a challenge for LBA but they’ll probably just pay the fines and carry on.

 

[scottrhino]

I suppose this is the time VH and others earn their wages. He’s been around the block for long enough and quietly probably expected an issue.

I don’t they’ve been rocked on their heels. Plan b will have been planned out. For me it’s LCC saying we’re watching you and a reset moment with the airport and council.

The night time movements we as an airport are guilty of is very unlikely to be exceeded moving forward as we have very few additional stands for growth so it’ll be organic through midday and w leg sectors to get to the magic 7m.

Can you imagine LCC having to explain thousands of job losses to the electoral in Leeds. Total own goal. The reality is that they’ve reviewed and concluded were in breach but like all business arrangements the negotiations start now.

We cannot be dictated to by a small minority for the bigger majority. That is what’s holding this country back. I see Wimbledon managed to get its new courts passed. That’s not down to the neighbours buckling but serious negotiations behind the scenes of the importance of business much the same way as LBIA is to our local area.

I might be totally wrong but if the council dig their heels in they’ll have a lot to answer for in jobs lost and businesses relocating ie Jet 2 call centre.

 

[Finger66]

Anybody heard anything from the airport?

They who shall not be named apparently have and it's rumoured to be only overnight when they have!!!!!!

 

[leedslad]

For what it's worth I do have some sympathy for those who complained here (whilst supporting growth of the airport myself).

I don't back anyone who moves close to an airport and then is surprised when said airport wants to grow (and therefore couldn't support any arguments against the brand new terminal)...

However I can see that people have understood there to be protections against night flights and have complained when not complied to. I would though support any airport applications via appropriate channels to expand hours etc.

It's a bit like if you moved in next to some noisy neighbours and they held late noisy parties. When you complain to the authorities the neighbours just state they've held noisy parties for years...

 

[SierraHotel]

My issue centres around the fact that the restriction is effectively a 31 year old limitation when aircraft were considerably more noisy. An Airbus NEO or a Boeing Max on approach into LBA is barely audible, irrespective of the time of day (or night).

 

[Jerry]

An Airbus NEO or a Boeing Max on approach into LBA is barely audible, irrespective of the time of day (or night).

But not all aircraft flying into LBA are NEOs or MAXs especially Jet2 aircraft who often are the ones arriving late.

 

[michael]

Maybe we need a decibel measurer at each end of the runway - anything under a certain level is ok, anything over a certain level counts on the quota

 

[Finger66]

But not all aircraft flying into LBA are NEOs or MAXs especially Jet2 aircraft who often are the ones arriving late.

Yes but those noisier Jet2 ones don't exceed the quota by themselves and is basically the base of the argument that NEOS and MAX shouldn't vount

 

[White Heather]

Well they've done their complaining, won their argument, and in all likelihood, the eventual outcome will be a planning application to vary night hours, and the number of night movements. If successful, their joy will be shortlived and they will only have themselves to blame.

I hsve lived bear LBA my entire life almost, and my view is that anyone livng near an airport and expecting things to remain as they are, are deluded. You may as well live next to a motorway and complain when levels of traffic using it increases. Sorry, but 'it wasn't like this when we bought it' doesn't wash.

Remember that this problem could have gone away as LCC approved a change in night hours as part of Project Sky. We are only back where we are because the airport withdrew the application due to Tory procrastination and a pandemic. So those complaining should consider themselves fortunate that they still have something to complain about.

 

[SierraHotel]

I think it's something called progress that the Great Unwashed object to.

 

[White Heather]

My issue centres around the fact that the restriction is effectively a 31 year old limitation when aircraft were considerably more noisy. An Airbus NEO or a Boeing Max on approach into LBA is barely audible, irrespective of the time of day (or night).

It is, but playing devil's advocate. LBA could have applied for planning approval at any time to update aircraft types and night movement limits. Why didn't they?

Probably because they genuinely believed it wasn't necessary due to the ambiguity of the planning consent. They almost certainly still believe that and absolutely disagree with the outcome of the CLEUD inquiry. And it's not just the current airport operators. Bridgepoint could have and before them, so could the airport as operated by the West Yorkshire Councils.

It's a very long time since Chapter 1 jet aircraft were banned yet at no time has the airport sought to change things other than via Project Sky and even that was limited to night hours. Nothing about QC 0 25 aircraft. They clearly felt there wasn't a need. Only now, everything has changed.

 

[Sherburnflyer92]

But not all aircraft flying into LBA are NEOs or MAXs especially Jet2 aircraft who often are the ones arriving late.

With the exception to the rule on that it would probably force Jet2 to bring the NEO's in sooner over later. Which would then not constitute towards the night movements.

With NEO's that brings ... more passengers. So a win win for the airport and airline

 

[SierraHotel]

As it stands, Neos and Max's do constitute towards night movements.

 

[LBAYORKIE]

It is, but playing devil's advocate. LBA could have applied for planning approval at any time to update aircraft types and night movement limits. Why didn't they?

Probably because they genuinely believed it wasn't necessary due to the ambiguity of the planning consent. They almost certainly still believe that and absolutely disagree with the outcome of the CLEUD inquiry. And it's not just the current airport operators. Bridgepoint could have and before them, so could the airport as operated by the West Yorkshire Councils.

It's a very long time since Chapter 1 jet aircraft were banned yet at no time has the airport sought to change things other than via Project Sky and even that was limited to night hours. Nothing about QC 0 25 aircraft. They clearly felt there wasn't a need. Only now, everything has changed.

If I understood the report correctly they did increase the limit once.

 

[Finger66]

As it stands, Neos and Max's do constitute towards night movements.

Think of it this way though. 2 x daily NEOs to PMI is basically the same as 3 x daily 733s so a that could reduce overall movements without restricting pax on This is just one of many things that can be done, it's just whether they will be done. There are workarounds but it's how long airlines and LBA are prepared to persist with these until perhaps a new planning application is successful

 

[White Heather]

Think of it this way though. 2 x daily NEOs to PMI is basically the same as 3 x daily 733s so a that could reduce overall movements without restricting pax on This is just one of many things that can be done, it's just whether they will be done. There are workarounds but it's how long airlines and LBA are prepared to persist with these until perhaps a new planning application is successful

Absolutely.

The situation has deteriorated in terms of night movements since LBA ' acquired' all 7 Boeing 737 300 aircraft. It was bound to do so really, given the increase in movements although I note that on some days, this summer, all the 300s are back at LBA before midnight and all later arrivals are 800s. That's not enough though. 2300 is the witching hour and multiple 300s arrive after then on some days.

Using larger aircraft could, in theory, lead to the same number of passengers on fewer movements. However. Jet2 have shown no inclination to bless LBA with anything bigger than a 738 since the 757s disappeared over the Pennines. Whether LBA can persuade them to do so remains to be seen, but there's little doubt that it's Jet2 that have brought this situation about inadvertently.

 

[Sherburnflyer92]

As it stands, Neos and Max's do constitute towards night movements.

As it stands. However if they airport applies and the council support 2025 common sense with the airport spelling it out that MAX/NEO are not that noisy AC, then suddenly the 21NEO will likely appear. 3 aircraft take out 6 movements a day every day throughout summer.

 

[JRP]

Just had a look into the noise stuff and found this on goodle

Boeing Max max decibels on takeoff of 70
Airbus A320 neo 85 decibels on takeoff

Lba probs max allowed 87 decibels

So this is now really stupid