Flybe

[KARFA]

Thats because unless you fly BA or Aer Lingus from London they are virtually the only airline to take you there from the UK.

That is true if you look at BHD only, but not so if you include BFS which has quite a few services from the UK by U2.

 

[Jerry]

Disagree you don't need 4-5 rotations a day...2 is enough.

Well it depends on the timing. My sister often goes to Manchester instead of Leeds because they have Dublin flights which are earlier.
Last year I flew up to Edinburgh for a trip from Cardiff but returned via Bristol because the flight time was earlier as CWL only had 2 daily flights instead of the 3 now. More frequency on routes like LBA-BHD give the customer more options.

 

[Jerry]

And if you can't make the 5pm departure what then? Or that the 8am departure is too late? What then?

 

[Jobsagoodun]

Government reports indicate that productivity has plateaued in recent years in the UK and the economy suffers as a result. Frequency of services provides choice and helps to ensure productivity increases. I agree that you could just offer a day return option with two flights but this wouldn't help boost productivity which is something we also need to throw into the mix. Obviously, this isn't something to consider for predominantly leisure orientated services.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Don’t bother going!

Interesting debate this and I'm going to slightly off topic in my response (SORRY!) before bringing it back to LBA.

I have done a fair bit of domestic flying for work in the past year or so across many different routes. One of the routes I seem to be using more regularly at the moment is BHX - GLA. This route has been a Flybe stronghold for a long time and there are about five departures a day providing reasonable choice. Recently, however, easyJet have also announced the route and, as the flights will be operated by a GLA based aircraft rather than a BHX aircraft (as is the case with Flybe), the flight times are slightly different. Whilst the Northbound times don't really help me that much, the Southbound flight times are absolutely perfect for what I need (ignoring the fact they are also at least 50% cheaper). These additions to the service will mean that I will now be able to plan my work days and travel much more efficiently and having those choices really enhances my life, as well as making it cheaper for me and the company.

I'd also like to directly address anyone who may be reading from the government who thinks we should use trains rather than domestic flights. If your working day in Birmingham finishes at 5pm and you need to get home to the Glasgow region, the first AND ONLY direct train that you are realistically going to catch is at 19:15 which gets to Glasgow at 23:15. You then have to find your way home. Finishing at the same time and catching a flight, there are options at 7pm, 8pm AND 9pm and all arrive in Glasgow well before the train.

To bring this back to LBA, having the choice to fly at a time that is appropriate to your needs is absolutely crucial to the needs of the business users who typically frequent these flights. It's all very good and well saying, "Don't Go," but this isn't an option, the work still needs to be done and all we are doing by reducing the number of flights is increasing the potential cost to the businesses as they have to stump up for things like hotel stays and lost productivity. This is why the Eastern/Flybe partnership will have reverted to 3 flights a day using smaller aircraft rather than 2 flights a day on a larger aircraft (though, for the record, I still don't think the timings are spot on). Having that flexibility will allow businesses to plan their workforce more effectively. I'm sure that, in a number of cases, businesses would even pay for a part flex or fully flex ticket with this in mind which would be of massive interest to the airline. This is not such a good looking option if there are only two flights a day.

For example, just looking at flights between LBA and Southampton, partial flex costs about £40 more with any changes requiring the fare difference to be paid also. That said, the fare difference often isn't much, if anything. This is cheaper than buying a ticket and then having to buy a new ticket if plans change.

So, whilst two flights a day with a larger aircraft on many domestic routes MIGHT be enough in terms of passenger numbers, it is NOT what the customer wants or needs. If the economy and productivity is to be encouraged, the customer should get what they want. The only reason we are in this situation at all is because of how badly Flybe has been managed. There is a fundamentally viable business out there.

Final point: Is anybody really surprised that a consortium including Virgin, having taken over Flybe, is now embroiled in controversy over Flybe's Heathrow slots? Not me. Why else would Virgin have got involved? For the other airlines to now be complaining left, right and centre about the situation is too late. If they wanted to complain, they should have done so at the time of sale, particularly considering the apparently larger (market value) offer that was presented only a few weeks prior. Not that airlines have ever been involved in skullduggery.

 

[Tarn Spotter]

Interesting debate this and I'm going to slightly off topic in my response (SORRY!) before bringing it back to LBA.

I have done a fair bit of domestic flying for work in the past year or so across many different routes. One of the routes I seem to be using more regularly at the moment is BHX - GLA. This route has been a Flybe stronghold for a long time and there are about five departures a day providing reasonable choice. Recently, however, easyJet have also announced the route and, as the flights will be operated by a GLA based aircraft rather than a BHX aircraft (as is the case with Flybe), the flight times are slightly different. Whilst the Northbound times don't really help me that much, the Southbound flight times are absolutely perfect for what I need (ignoring the fact they are also at least 50% cheaper). These additions to the service will mean that I will now be able to plan my work days and travel much more efficiently and having those choices really enhances my life, as well as making it cheaper for me and the company.

I'd also like to directly address anyone who may be reading from the government who thinks we should use trains rather than domestic flights. If your working day in Birmingham finishes at 5pm and you need to get home to the Glasgow region, the first AND ONLY direct train that you are realistically going to catch is at 19:15 which gets to Glasgow at 23:15. You then have to find your way home. Finishing at the same time and catching a flight, there are options at 7pm, 8pm AND 9pm and all arrive in Glasgow well before the train.

To bring this back to LBA, having the choice to fly at a time that is appropriate to your needs is absolutely crucial to the needs of the business users who typically frequent these flights. It's all very good and well saying, "Don't Go," but this isn't an option, the work still needs to be done and all we are doing by reducing the number of flights is increasing the potential cost to the businesses as they have to stump up for things like hotel stays and lost productivity. This is why the Eastern/Flybe partnership will have reverted to 3 flights a day using smaller aircraft rather than 2 flights a day on a larger aircraft (though, for the record, I still don't think the timings are spot on). Having that flexibility will allow businesses to plan their workforce more effectively. I'm sure that, in a number of cases, businesses would even pay for a part flex or fully flex ticket with this in mind which would be of massive interest to the airline. This is not such a good looking option if there are only two flights a day.

For example, just looking at flights between LBA and Southampton, partial flex costs about £40 more with any changes requiring the fare difference to be paid also. That said, the fare difference often isn't much, if anything. This is cheaper than buying a ticket and then having to buy a new ticket if plans change.

So, whilst two flights a day with a larger aircraft on many domestic routes MIGHT be enough in terms of passenger numbers, it is NOT what the customer wants or needs. If the economy and productivity is to be encouraged, the customer should get what they want. The only reason we are in this situation at all is because of how badly Flybe has been managed. There is a fundamentally viable business out there.

Final point: Is anybody really surprised that a consortium including Virgin, having taken over Flybe, is now embroiled in controversy over Flybe's Heathrow slots? Not me. Why else would Virgin have got involved? For the other airlines to now be complaining left, right and centre about the situation is too late. If they wanted to complain, they should have done so at the time of sale, particularly considering the apparently larger (market value) offer that was presented only a few weeks prior. Not that airlines have ever been involved in skullduggery.

The Sunday Times financial page has calculated that the Flybe slots now being vacated at heathrow will be worth over £60 million a year to either Delta or Virgin if they are transferred to the transatlantic routes.
Not sure I am happy at Flybe getting a tax holiday and other partners making a vast profit.
It does make sense that the government look at the APD charges on internal u.k. routes, leaving the fee in place for routes between large u.k. cities i.e. LBA to LHR, LHR to GLA etc. however LBA to SOU etc becoming free.
Until we have HS2, HS3 and HS4, we need to accept there is a place for air travel.

 

[LBA8098]

Leeds and decent transport infrastructure are mutually exclusive.

 

[Tarn Spotter]

I have a feeling HS2 will never come to Leeds.

With crossrail costing around £20 billion for 73 miles, £106 Billion for HS2 is value for money.
The Flybe deal hopefully showed that regional connection is high on the list of government aims, Andy Burnham is passionate about this line and the link to HS3 as is Judith Blake.
Having knocked on doors since 1964 and had them slammed in my face until 2016, if we fail on this, it will be another 50 years before those doors open again.
My head says your right, but my political heart hopes your wrong.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Boris Johnson has a very early opportunity here to make good on what he said following his election victory and cancelling these important projects will simply show him to be a liar and a cad. I don't think he has any choice but approve HS2 and, quite frankly, he will have to find the money from somewhere. Unfortunately, the Flybe situation has put a bit of a spanner in the works as APD would pay for a large proportion of the HS2 scheme over the life of the build. Any decision to cut APD will naturally have an effect on government coffers and will make the money for HS2 more difficult to find.

On the subject of Judith Blake, I'm sorry, but IMO she is a complete waste of time and it is of no surprise to me that her residence is listed as Otley and numerous road, rail and air enhancements in that part of the world seem to be unable to find their way through LCC. She only ever seems to add on to the comments of the elected mayors of Liverpool, Manchester and Sheffield and doesn't have much to say for herself or Leeds. With that in mind, it is almost embarrassing for the City of Leeds - and the Leeds City Region - that the lead voice on matters pertaining to transport in the North is coming from Andy Burnham of Manchester.

Let's take HS2, HS3 and all of the other planned improvements (other than LBA station) that are either awaiting approval or have been scrapped and look solely at the rail system around LBA. The LBA station plan was developed to be built regardless of whether or not the link road was built. Indeed, it was envisioned that the station would be built prior to the link road anyway. The plans for the station without the link road still exist and there is now significant pressure on the region to improve rail links which leads me to believe that the station will come. IF the station is built, LBA will have, relatively close by, LBA Station and Apperley Bridge Station.

I've been saying for some time that LBA itself needs to take far more responsibility for its own access and can't just rely on the various other failures to do it for them. IF these stations are both accessible, LBA needs to put regular buses on for people to get between these stations and the airport. This would then afford people access to a wide range of destinations across the North of England. Directly, passengers could catch services to Leeds, Bradford, Harrogate and York. With a change at Shipley, passengers could access the airport from locations all the way to Lancaster and Carlisle. With a change at Leeds, even more. However, I am very interested in the new LNER service to Harrogate and the proposed service to Bradford Forster Square. There is plenty of room in the timetable for the LNER Harrogate service to stop at any new LBA station and this would open up direct services to the likes of Wakefield, Doncaster and Newark. It is my hope that LBA really pushes this if it happens but it HAS to come from LBA.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

My apologies by the way - there is a lot of crossover with the Access thread. It started by being related to Flybe - I promise!

 

[AirBingley]

Eastern by all accounts are withdrawing ops from Newcastle and going Big Bang into Teesside under the Flybe banner. New routes are SOU, DUB, LCY, CWL, BFS and seasonal IOM. There’s already commentary on how long it will last and my bet is the now publicly owned airport has given them a massive sweetener. If the trend is to move aircraft south then maybe us next?

 

[paully]

FLYBE is racing to plug a multimillion-pound hole in its finances as the Government decides whether to step in with a bridging loan.
The Sunday Telegraph has learnt that Europe’s biggest regional airline has held a series of emergency meetings with airports over millions of pounds in unpaid landing fees.
Industry sources said Flybe last week “got out its begging bowl”, appealing for more time to pay debts.
It is understood that boss Mark Anderson led crisis talks with major bases including Birmingham, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Southampton.
While insiders said the airports are minded to support the airline, deferrals could have devastating repercussions on their own finances. In many cases Flybe is their biggest customer.
The discussions come as Flybe works with a distressed lender to protect the position of its shareholders – US hedge fund Cyrus Capital, Virgin Atlantic and Stobart Group.
Companies House filings show that Flybe has effective mortgaged engines and buildings to Global Loans Agency Services, a specialist previously called on as the likes of Thomas Cook, Carillion, Johnston Press and Interserve fought losing battles for survival.
Meanwhile, industry sources said that Flybe is scrambling to thrash out a deal with a special Government unit set up to provide short-term support to businesses on a commercial basis.
Industry sources said that the Exeter-based carrier submitted heads of terms to ministers for a £100m loan last week. However, with more than one department needing to give the funding their blessing, it may be several weeks before a final decision is reached and the money is available to be drawn down.
Flybe was plunged into crisis earlier this month after the taxman threatened to wind up the business over debts of around £10m.
After talks with HMRC broke down, the airline is understood to have appealed to the Government. Ministers subsequently agreed to review the air passenger duty regime – a tax that is paid by passengers leaving UK airports – which has hampered Flybe for a number of years. The taxman later agreed a “time to pay” arrangement with Flybe over its debts.
Mr Anderson has hit back at suggestions Flybe had been handed special treatment by the Government, insisting that state loans would not be a “bailout” and would be offered on commercial terms. The prospect of any help from the Government, just four months after it refused to step in to rescue debt-laden travel agent Thomas Cook, has enraged rival airlines. Many feel Flybe has been given special treatment.
Sajid Javid, the Chancellor, dismissed the complaints on Friday, however, saying the taxman’s forbearance was standard procedure.
A Flybe spokesman said: “We do not comment on our financial matters.”
A Birmingham airport spokesman said: “Flybe is an important carrier to us and the Midlands region but we do not comment on commercial terms concerning any of our airlines.”
A spokesman for Aberdeen, Glasgow and Southampton said: “We communicate frequently with all of our airline partners and any and all meetings we do have are private matters.”
The Government declined to comment.

I`ve read this story and its sad..However I can`t believe Virgin/Cyrus et al didnt do due diligence and realise what a financial crock they were buying. They now seem to have shied away from putting the required amount of money in and seem to be expecting the taxpayer and others to take on the risk they havent the stomach for. Or have I missed something

 

[Len Fish]

Time to pay arrangements with HMRC are standard practice but short term Government loans, even on commercial terms, are not. The proposed arrangement is similar to that used by the German Government to rescue Condor (now incidentally purchased by LOT) with one major difference, Condor was and is a profitable airline, dragged down by Thomas Cook plundering its liquidity. A major problem for the British Government is if it goes along with the loan arrangement where does it stop? How many other failing businesses will be joining the queue for taxpayers money?

 

[Jerry]

. A major problem for the British Government is if it goes along with the loan arrangement where does it stop? How many other failing businesses will be joining the queue for taxpayers money?

I think what the loan may do is give the government time to come up with a contingency plan to for the English regional services to continue. They won't be bothered about the Welsh and Scottish routes or the EU routes but they won't want to lose the non London north to south English connectivity especially if they want to keep their bums on the those northern seats!

 

[TheLocalYokel]

I think what the loan may do is give the government time to come up with a contingency plan to for the English regional services to continue. They won't be bothered about the Welsh and Scottish routes or the EU routes but they won't want to lose the non London north to south English connectivity especially if they want to keep their bums on the those northern seats!

If you are correct about the government only worrying about English regional connectivity between between non-London north to south English routes which routes would be involved? We seem to be talking about SOU to MAN, NCL and LBA; EXT to MAN and NCL; NQY to MAN and LBA and seasonal to BHX.

Are you suggesting that the government would come up with something to save these Flybe routes whilst letting the Welsh and Scottish Flybe domestic routes rot?

 

[Jerry]

English routes which routes would be involved? We seem to be talking about SOU to MAN, NCL and LBA; EXT to MAN and NCL; NQY to MAN and LBA and seasonal to BHX.

Yep those and Jersey and IOM routes as well. The latter probably wouldn't need as much help I'd have thought as the others to keep.
The Scottish routes for the most part I'd imagine be replaced by Loganair and maybe Easyjet. I don't think they would be bothered about connectivity to Wales as I believe that they will just take the attitude of Wales has English airports it can use.

 

[White Heather]

And what about their East - West routes involving Belfast City, one of their main bases and without Flybe, Belfast City is in trouble. The LBA to Belfast route obviously does very well with up to 5 flights daily this coming summer.

 

[Jerry]

And what about their East - West routes involving Belfast City, one of their main bases and without Flybe, Belfast City is in trouble. The LBA to Belfast route obviously does very well with up to 5 flights daily this coming summer.

I'd imagine that like Scotland the Belfast capacity would be replaced but maybe not to the extent it is.

 

[paully]

Without being Political, there are many good reasons to preserve some of the Flybe routes, which enhance regional connectivity. Clearly there are many routes that need chopping and maybe a handful of EU routes would be worth retaining, the rest not. Flybe have not yet done the root and branch reform the business demands. If it is in such dire straights, massive overheads, unsustainable route network, investors refusing to honour their obligations then the Government should and must refuse any such unsecured loans and refer Flybe back to those who bought it for a song promised them the earth.

 

[Seasider]

I'd imagine that like Scotland the Belfast capacity would be replaced but maybe not to the extent it is.

But by whom?
Easyjet would only offer flights to where they already fly and Loganair/Eastern have nowhere near the capacity that is required.