Road, Rail & Access Issues

[leedslad]

Isn't that all you are?

You still haven't answered my question about how you make a direct route viable?

Of course a direct route is possible, but as has already been stated, it would cost too much.

Yes indeed I am... Hence why I am so keen they do a new study on the costs and benefits... Rather than make assumptions.

 

[White Heather]

Why is everyone (desktop keyboard experts) so certain the gradient and cost of digging a cutting are still prohibitive.

The terminal is now in a completely different location to original study. Firstly the length of cutting required is much shorter (cheaper). Secondly the land is much lower (cheaper and less gradient).

I don't mind if a new study is undertaken and proves no case but why isn't everyone wanting the airport to push the council to reinvestigate?

We are talking about a 3/4 mile cutting. Drive along any motorway and you'll drive through longer cuttings. Most of our Victorian railway system is through cuttings.

Also don't make the mistake of valuing each passenger using the train equally... A Yorkshire person going to Spain once a year to spend money abroad far less valuable than a business person or tourist using it and boosting our economy.

Have you actually contacted the airport yourself to push them to do this Leedslad? You do a lot of complaining on here about the fact this isn't happening. If you are so keen on this, why not get in touch with them yourself? I will even make it easy for you if you PM me and give you the email address of the person you should contact!

I assume that I am one of those that you refer to as a desktop keyboard expert. I am not, but I can read. I have seen, and read, the report done previously by the engineering consultants employed a few years ago to look into the possibility of a heavy rail link. They said it wasn't feasible then, and despite your claims that moving the terminal to its new location suddenly makes a rail link more viable, my personal view is that it doesn't, as the steepest part of the climb for any rail link is out of the cutting that the main rail line already runs through (it is after all just about to head into a tunnel), and up towards Scotland Lane. That distance (rail line to new terminal) is just 0.7 of a mile, but there is still quite a height difference between the rail line and terminal, and only 0.7 of a mile to climb it. I know the area well having lived around here my entire life, and it is clear to me that to get a gradient for heavy rail, the line would need to branch off towards the airport far further down the track towards Horsforth. That might enable them to get the gradient right but it would also lead to the line being longer, therefore negating the savings you talk about. It would also mean compulsory purchase on a much greater scale than previously as the line would cross through several farms, riding stables etc. on its way to the airport. A rail cutting through farms would certainly require the construction of bridges etc so farmers could move livestock from one side of the rail line to the other.

However, all that is academic. It isn't the airport that would build or fund this line, it is Leeds City Council combined with the West Yorkshire Combined Authority. Being able to read, I have read only last month their documents in which they refer to their preferred option of a Parkway Station with Park and Ride facility. It refers to the advantages of that, not only for the airport, but the entire area given that there is no Park and Ride in NW Leeds and totally inadequate parking at the existing rail stations. This is not just about LBA. The issue of a heavy rail link has fallen off their agenda some time ago and from what I have read, there is no chance whatsoever of them putting it back on the agenda, particularly since such a rail link would only link the airport directly to Leeds. There is no way at all of getting such a line to link directly in the direction of Harrogate.

But like I said, there is little point in complaining on here that 'we' are not pushing LBA to in turn push Leeds City Council, to push West Yorkshire Combined Authority to re-open the case for a heavy rail link. Put your arguments directly to them. The Parkway Station can be constructed and operational by 2024 and will enable passengers from Leeds, York, Harrogate, Knaresborough to catch a direct train to LBA with a 2 minute electric bus link waiting to take them to the front door of the terminal. The heavy rail link you prefer will provide a direct link to Leeds only, will take many years more to come to fruition, cost many times more, and provide no park and ride facility at all, thereby failing to resolve any of the traffic issues or CO2 emissions in this part of the city.

 

[leedslad]

I have actually emailed them but only via a generic email address since they aren't too forthcoming on the website. A direct contact would be appreciated.

I refer to everyone when describing Internet keyboard experts myself included.

My only wish is they at least revisit the study... Then decisions or otherwise are made in facts not assumptions.

You talk about "the steepest gradient" but surely the gradient of any rail link would be one consistent climb built into a cutting. Also the rail halt itself need not be at ground level but could be in a cutting itself which would minimise the climb required.

The Park and Ride could still operate as part of a direct terminal link. It would be quicker for direct York trains to run via Leeds too. And decisions about the Parkway proposal were made prior to the new terminal location announcement.

It may well be it is still unviable but until an expert has reassessed the required gradients, cutting depth and land requirement with associated costs it seems short sighted to make assumptions about a facility which will ill serve the airport for up to a decade.

 

[LBAYORKIE]

Horsforth topographic map, elevation, terrain

Average elevation: 127 m • Horsforth, West Yorkshire, England, United Kingdom • Visualization and sharing of free topographic maps.

en-gb.topographic-map.com

This might help, it gives spot heights. Looking at it the height where I think the Parkway will be is 492ft, and where the terminus will be its 652ft. I havent worked out the gradient, but feel free to do so.

 

[leedslad]

According to Ordnance survey if I read correctly the existing rail line is at 125m. Scotland Lane is around 170m.
A rail halt in a cutting therefore could be at 160m

A difference of 35m.

Over 1300m this would be a gradient of 2.7% (1 in 37).

Generally I believe sttepest heavy rail gradient is 1 in 38.

Therefore according to this keyboard expert the new terminal location is borderline close to being viable...

Hence my desire experts re evaluate the business case... Not a crazy request?...

 

[White Heather]

Horsforth topographic map, elevation, terrain

Average elevation: 127 m • Horsforth, West Yorkshire, England, United Kingdom • Visualization and sharing of free topographic maps.

en-gb.topographic-map.com

This might help, it gives spot heights. Looking at it the height where I think the Parkway will be is 492ft, and where the terminus will be its 652ft. I havent worked out the gradient, but feel free to do so.

I think you may be looking slightly too far up the track LBAYorkie. Where the Parkway will go is around 412 feet, and where the terminal goes is 646 feet, so there is around 234 feet to climb in 0.7 of a mile, slightly less if the LBA 'station' was in a cutting.

 

[Aviador]

As I said in my earlier post, I'm sure it is possible and lets say the council were to reconsider it as an option. Passengers coming from Harrogate would still have to change at Horsforth which isn't ideal, granted you wouldn't get as many passengers coming from Harrogate as you would from Leeds though.

Pros Direct Link

• Door to door perceived as quicker
• Possibly more attractive to scheduled airline passengers seeking rail connections further afield
• Easier for business passengers to get to Leeds and Bradford
• Easier to continue tram train option to Yeadon and Guiseley

Cons Direct Link

• Reduced connectivity to Harrogate and the North
• No park and ride facility available
• Change at Horsforth required for passengers heading to Harrogate
• More expensive to build

Pros Parkway Station

• Possibility for Yeadon and Horsforth residence to use as park and ride
• Connections to Harrogate & York
• Possibility to connect to the North East
• Cheaper to build

Cons Parkway Station

• Requires additional short connection by road to terminal
• Perceived as taking too long to get to the terminal
• Access limited for park and ride do local roads
• Further away from the proposed airport business park

What the council decides to do is anybody guess but for the time being they are still pursuing the Parkway idea. My preferred option would still be tram train with less of a need for a deep cut with an onward route to Yeadon and then Guiseley so no need to build additional car parking near the airport.

 

[leedslad]

I'd love the tram train option but we know how that always ends for Leeds.
Also once any Parkway is built then the business case for direct link is greatly diminished.

Finally why can't a direct link also work with Park and Ride?

 

[Aviador]

Finally why can't a direct link also work with Park and Ride?

Because the parking would need to be offsite

 

[leedslad]

But I thought hopping on a bus to a nearby rail halt was incredibly easy and took no time and hassle at all?

On a more serious note though surely some solution could be found for locating said car park or a land swap deal with the airport etc.

 

[Heathrowflyer]

I can see the proposed park and ride parking site becoming an issue with people using it as a holding place to minimise pick up/drop off charges. The nearer the airport it is the more of a problem it will be.

 

[White Heather]

I can see the proposed park and ride parking site becoming an issue with people using it as a holding place to minimise pick up/drop off charges. The nearer the airport it is the more of a problem it will be.

That is a risk they have already identified so expect procedures in place to prevent it.

 

[Aviador]

I can see the proposed park and ride parking site becoming an issue with people using it as a holding place to minimise pick up/drop off charges. The nearer the airport it is the more of a problem it will be.

And what distinguishes airport traffic from local park and ride traffic.

 

[leedslad]

Very simple with modern tech

Number plate recognition. No stays under one hour no stays over 12 hours. Otherwise a fine.

 

[Heathrowflyer]

Issue with number place recognition thou...what if you are dropping someone off at a park and ride (like I sometimes do) . I'm in there 5 mins so would be fined under, say, an hour rule.

 

[leedslad]

A P&R drop off zone before the cameras ?... Nothing is insurmountable...

 

[Aviador]

Cancelled trains?

 

[Bigman]

So what if you turn up early doors to get your LNER Azuma to Kings Cross for a day's conference, and don't get back until late in the day? Would you expect to be fined??

 

[leedslad]

Lol I'm just giving an example here. Of course they'd work out suitable timings...

Then they'd say no stays longer than 18 hours.
Everyone happy with the minute detail of this theotical example now?

 

[Heathrowflyer]

I guess it's difficult trying to merge two competing aims for this park and ride car park 1. To provide free parking to encourage commuters to use the park and ride. 2. To discourage travellers from using it as a holding place.
Let's be honest, if the park and ride mode of transport to the airport for holidaymakers really did take off and there was a reduction in airport car park usage then I'm guessing the airport would take a sizeable hit financially.