Flybe

[TheLocalYokel]

A need for a new business model therefore exists. BA don't want it, Virgin tried, so who else is there? A British domestic perhaps? Air UK came and went, Brymon Airways got eaten, Duo was a flash of lightning and we have BA Cityflyer. Does a need for a British Domestic airline exist and if so, would it resist international?

Interesting that you mentioned Brymon Airways because in a very roundabout way it finished up as part of Flybe mark 1.

Brymon was formed in 1970 by two New Zealanders, Bill Bryce and Chris Amon (a Formula One racing driver). They set up bases at Plymouth and Newquay. They later became the first British airline to operate the four-engined Dash 7 aircraft.

British Airways later acquired a large minority share in Brymon Airways.

In October 1992, Brymon Airways merged with Birmingham European Airways to form Brymon European Airways (I had to check the date).
Brymon European Airways was bought jointly by British Airways and Maersk Air. In 1993 Brymon European Airways was split up with British Airways buying the Brymon Airways part and Maersk Air buying the Birmingham European Airways part which they called Maersk Air UK.

The by now wholly BA-owned Brymon Airways Ltd fleet was painted in BA colours and operated franchise routes for BA, particularly from Bristol Airport which had become Brymon's main hub.

In 2002 Brymon merged with British Regional Airlines to form BA Citiexpress. In 2006 BA Citiexpress was renamed BAConnect (BACon) and by then was operating a fleet of E145 and E135 aircraft. A year later BAConnect was sold to Flybe and ceased to exist as an airline.

 

[Coathanger16]

"May be achievable" , that is my concern. Can business, not least a Capital intensive one, survive on maybe's?

"May be achievable" was only my opinion as a complete outsider. The people behind this will have all the knowledge and clearly feel they can make it work otherwise they wouldn't be doing it!

Their slogan about being faster and cheaper than the train was a good one, but often let down by aircraft going "tech" (usually Dash8) and cost-cutting by combining flights not just at quieter times during day. In fact, some disgruntled passengers renamed it "Flymaybe".

I flew with Flybe on three occasions: Glasgow & Paris on a Dash 8, and Bordeaux on an Embraer. Don't recall any problems on any of the flights, and in fact on the domestic the cabin crew were very helpful in finding somewhere in the cabin for my bag to go when it didn't fit in the overhead locker.

 

[JENNYJET]

I also struggle, I understand why BA does not engage beyond the big bases of Manchester and London with a token Scottish presence. However, if not BA to serve Exeter, Norwich, Southend and Birmingham, why be the flag carrier?

 

[Poshgirl]

That's a debate that's been "raging" for some time on the Business Traveller forum. As I've mentioned before, most of these guys are frequent flyers with epic status on many airlines' frequent flyer programmes.

Because BA is "London centric" we know they are not interested in regional domestic operations. At the same time, they know that they lose business to the likes of KLM and Lufthansa because their hubs are a short flight away, better connected and it's often cheaper. I have neighbours with a second home in the Far East. Their preferred route is BHX-AMS-Far East; sometimes via FRA, never CDG for a number of reasons. So, it applies to leisure travellers too. Then you get Emirates who are willing to serve larger UK regional airports, so a domestic airline would only be serving the likes of EXT, DSA, EMA, SEN, etc.

There currently isn't a UK airline with the appetite to operate just domestically. I doubt whether Flybe Mk2 will be able to ignore the lure of European destinations, but I could be wrong. After all, airlines are run by the number crunchers these days. A UK domestic airline would be heavily reliant on codeshare and interline arrangements.

 

[jfy1999]

Very often the failure is down to poor management as in other business sectors. Perhaps Flybe was guilty of wanting to punch above its weight. They needed staff (office based ones) who knew how to utilise the fleet instead of blaming the Embraer jets for not bringing in enough revenue of the seasonal European routes (Dubrovnik an example). Also the blinkered approach to only using propeller aircraft to try and compete with EasyJet and Ryanair. The other side of that argument is Blue Islands and Aurigny who hopefully have made a success of having a mostly prop fleet.

The writing was on the wall for a while, but not as long as Monarch or Thomas Cook. Virgin's involvement in Flybe Mk2 was, in my opinion, the usual grandstanding. With the failure of Little Red, their sorties into the UK domestic market have not ended well.

Apparently the E-jets were a financial ball and chain from the moment they were obtained, on leases where the prices turned out to be extortionate. The new airline will hopefully have no such issues

 

[Kevin Farnell]

Apparently the E-jets were a financial ball and chain from the moment they were obtained, on leases where the prices turned out to be extortionate.

Surely, that was the fault of Flybe management. If the deal is not good, walk away! A good example is that Ryanair have recently ended discussions with Boeing regarding the 737-Max10. Obviously, the proposed deal was unacceptable to Ryanair so they ended negotiations.

Kevin

 

[rollo]

Undoubtedly the lease for the E-Jets signed was the responsibility of the then management under Jim French in the 2000s.
According to the financial and aviation press over a period of time Flybe tried everything to change or terminate the terms of the deal but what they had contracted to in the agreement was watertight and an eywateringly bad deal. To walk away would have bust the airline anyway and potentially directors could have faced prosecution.

So a rock and a hard place for the following management and the subsequent financial pressures must have contributed to Flybe suffering a loss of reputation in reliability and service as in Flymaybe etc.

Ryanair is a different kettle of fish in that it walked away from discussions of a deal with nothing signed so no problem plus accepting Boeing are a massiive company and in theory would hold the whip hand in any negotiations they have big problems with not just the 737 but also the 777X and 787 and could do with all the good news they can get and also the dosh so surely they will want/need to cut a deal at some point.

Ryanair on the other hand are a key customer with something like 400 737s in operation, 200 Max in the course of delivery and were looking at another 200 of the Max 10. Boeing will not want to loose them to Airbus. If I was a betting man I'd say Boeing and Ryanair will get back round the table at some point it's not as if Ryanair are exactly subtle in their negotiation tactics.

That my take on it anyway.

 

[Kevin Farnell]

To walk away would have bust the airline anyway and potentially directors could have faced prosecution.

What I was referring to, was that Flybe should have walked away prior to signing the deal. It is up to management, to carry out 'due diligence' and make sure that they have a 'get out clause'. If the lessor refuses that, simple, don't sign!

Kevin

 

[rollo]

What I was referring to, was that Flybe should have walked away prior to signing the deal. It is up to management, to carry out 'due diligence' and make sure that they have a 'get out clause'. If the lessor refuses that, simple, don't sign!

Kevin

Yes I'm agreeing with you what I was trying to say but maybe didn't explain properly is the management who signed the deal realised afterwards how bad it was and later tried to get out of it as did subsequent management's but apparently the leasing company had better lawyers.

Anyway I think we're on the same page

rollo

 

[Kevin Farnell]

I've already posted this in the 'BHX Route Development and Rumours' thread, but feel it should also appear here -

Flybe announces Birmingham Airport as new headquarters

Regional airline Flybe was bought out by Thyme Opco after collapsing during the pandemic.

www.bbc.co.uk

Kevin

 

[smithy108]

Probably same press release but this from businessdesk.com

Airline announces Birmingham Airport as new HQ and plan to create 200 jobs​

Mark Firth (Flybe), Nick Barton (Birmingham Airport), David Pfilger (CEO of Flybe), Andy Street (Mayor of West Midlands) and Cindy Lewis (Flybe)

Flybe has today announced that Birmingham Airport will be its new company headquarters and first new crew base.

Flybe will serve regions across the UK and EU with operations scheduled to begin in early 2022. Birmingham Airport’s Diamond House will be the location of the company’s new HQ and Operations Centre, in a move that is expected to create around 200 new jobs in the Birmingham and West Midlands region over the next three years, with an estimated additional 400 direct jobs to be created nationwide.

The news follows the April sale of the business and assets of Flybe Ltd (in administration, now renamed FBE Realisations Ltd) to Thyme Opco Limited (now renamed Flybe Limited).

Flybe CEO Dave Pflieger said: “We are thrilled to be partnering with Birmingham Airport (BHX), the City of Birmingham, and the Mayor of West Midlands to make BHX the location of our new headquarters and first crew base. It was an ideal choice for us due to its great people and highly skilled workforce, its central UK location, and the fact that Birmingham Airport is a global travel hub where local and connecting customers have access to over 150 worldwide destinations. Today’s announcement marks the culmination of over 12 months of dedicated hard work by all involved, and it would not have been possible without the support of the CAA and the UK Government.”

Andy Street, Mayor of West Midlands, said: “It really is such brilliant news that Flybe is coming back as a commercial airline, and even better that it has chosen Birmingham to house its new headquarters.

“Not only does this mean better domestic and international connectivity for our region as well as local jobs and opportunities being created here, but it’s yet another show of faith in the West Midlands with businesses choosing to commit to our region as we recover from the pandemic.

“Flybe’s choice highlights the strength of the aerospace sector in the West Midlands and the talent pool available, and I wish Dave and his team all the very best ahead of their official launch early next year.”

Nick Barton, chief executive, Birmingham Airport, added: “Flybe’s announcement that Birmingham has been chosen to become the headquarters for its launch next spring is fantastic news for our region’s connectivity needs, and it will bring with it some great new employment opportunities. Dave’s vast experience in managing start-up airlines and turnaround situations, coupled with the recovery of the Midlands’ economy post-Covid, means that Flybe’s return to the skies from Birmingham is a shot in the arm for our airport as well as West Midlands businesses and communities. We look forward to working with Dave and his team in preparation for next spring and to launch such a well-known brand here in Birmingham.”

Pflieger added: “I also want to emphasise that a key area of focus from day one for Flybe will be environmental sustainability and ensuring we do everything possible to reduce our carbon footprint and GHGs. Our entire fleet will be comprised of the De Havilland Canada Dash 8-400, which is a fast turboprop powered aircraft that can complete short journeys almost as quickly as a regional jet, but with lower CO2 emissions. In addition, we will also be partnering with local community charities and partners who are focused on the environment as well as other causes which align with our corporate goals and values.

“As for what’s next, please stay tuned. We plan to provide more information in the coming weeks and months about ticket prices, new routes and destinations, and other important news that will help customers visit loved ones, get away for a weekend, and get out on business trips. This is an incredibly exciting time for us, and we look forward to sharing more updates in the future.”

 

[Scottie Dog]

Congratulations BHX on gaining Flybe.

Two questions - What size of a network do they hope to develop and when will they release unrequired slots at airports where they are potentially holding back expansion by other carriers?

 

[rollo]

Good news indeed although not exactly the best kept secret so now the guessing game of which routes.

I cannot see much on the domestic front with Scotland and Belfast pretty much tied up by EasyJet and IAG. I believe Emerald have just announced there timetable to BHD commencing March 27th at 27 weekly replacing BA. and also Loganair have good frequency on Aberdeen along with a good reputation so all in all it would amount to a bit of a nest of vipers for Flybe in my view and to go head to head would be brave.

On the positive side ther are bits in Ireland Newquay and the Channel Islands but surely the obvious routes are the likes of Stuggart, Hanover, Milan, Paris, Amsterdam and the old French holiday break destinations.

I'm sure other members will have different suggestions and I'm sure the new Flybe2 management are not new to this game so hopefully know what they are doing.

Wish them the best of luck, it great to have properly based airline at BHX from little acorns Oak trees grow and all that and maybe a bit more business for STS.

Whatever they do please don't take on easyjet as I can only see one winner although a bit more frequency on Glasgow from them would help, it will be interesting to see if or how easyjet respond.

 

[nwoody2001]

It will be interesting to watch.

The benefit of starting a new airline at times like this it that at an age where nearly all airlines (incl. easyjet) are burdened with tonnes of debt needed to weather the pandemic. In theory, flybe Mk2 wont have to worry about that and SHOULD be in a much more stable position moving forward.

 

[Brum X]

Interesting news, I will wait for further details over the coming months before I make my final verdict on this new Flybe.

 

[DaveBham]

Off the top of my head:
Destinations that would be useful from Birmingham
Newquay - all those second homeowners not wishing to do the 4hr drive
Newcastle - it's such a ball ache to get to. Eastern had it for a while, and charged about £300 return, so it's main clientele was business.
Jersey - with EasyJet gone the prices are back up. Some competition might help.
Anywhere French and coastal that isn't already well served.
And what about some unique destinations that would lure passengers from a wider catchment area around the UK? When I used to fly to Slovenia regularly, we were more than prepare to go to Stansted to fly into Maribor.

 

[HPsauce]

Adding to the 'Wish List', Hamburg, Berlin, Vienna, Rome, Valencia and several opportunities in Scandinavia.

 

[Coathanger16]

The problem with European destinations further than near continent is that on the Dash 8, flight times become much longer than jet.

Vs the A320, the Dash adds about 25% to flight times. Valencia would go from 1:45 to 2:10. Milan and Berlin would be 20 minutes longer than by jet.

Any European destinations should be limited to Northern France, Belgium & Amsterdam IMHO.

 

[Kevin Farnell]

The problem with European destinations further than near continent is that on the Dash 8, flight times become much longer than jet.

Vs the A320, the Dash adds about 25% to flight times. Valencia would go from 1:45 to 2:10. Milan and Berlin would be 20 minutes longer than by jet.

Any European destinations should be limited to Northern France, Belgium & Amsterdam IMHO.

Not necessarily for Flybe, but recently I've been thinking that the A220-200/300 would be ideal for many European routes from BHX. I hope Flybe are successful and in future they could take the A220 onboard. As long as they don't get into the mess that they did with the Embraers.

Kevin

 

[HPsauce]

Flybe CEO Dave Pflieger, when asked on ITV Central News said the Dash 8's were much geener for CO2 targets with only a small reduction in flight times. The range of Dash 8's is quite good. They can certainly reach most of western and central Europe. Birmingham Executive Airways used Jetstream 31 and Saab 340 quite successfully in the past to various European cities.