Leeds Bradford - General Thread

[LsS27]

Players that don't please

 

[Finger66]

So with footy charters from/to SOU now off the radar for next season, no chance of those being replaced by some from/to HUY or MME.
So even as a mad keen BCFC fan I am going to say "come on LUFC and qualify for Europe"

 

[lbaspotter]

This was posted on LinkedIn by the Aviation Director Declan Maguire whist was attending Routes Europe this week

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/decl...s&rcm=ACoAABuTeHIB-u5MLmnzjqIOmRLItT6kB6yhJa0

 

[Snackbar]

I’m presuming the AENA transaction must have completed it’s formalities now as LBA is also listed on their website as one of their own airports…..Good news for LBA.

International and national Spanish airports | Aena

Find out about Aena's network of airports in Spain. The world's leading airport operator, with 63 airports, 48 of which in Spain. Find out about the routes!

www.aena.es

 

[752]

Would be good to hear from the airport what exceptions they have from AENA / plans and likewise what expectations they have from LBA

 

[LBA4EVER]

Interesting video with quite abit of info regarding the 1985 british airtours incident. Interesting how the highest part of the runway at LBA is at the start of R14 which I think is pretty surprising and how a TDZ on a downslope can affect runway performance figures, a point I've raised.

 

[Severn]

The runway profile is certainly relevant, but having looked at the AAIB report, the investigation wasn’t really focused on runway slope being overlooked.

The findings were much more about wet runway braking performance, the condition of Runway 14’s surface, and whether the stopping performance expected from the TriStar matched what was actually achieved on the day.

Runway gradients aren’t something that pilots or performance engineers ignore. The uphill/downhill slope of a runway is factored into aircraft performance calculations and is considered on every flight. It was in 1985 and it still is today. A downhill runway will generally increase the landing distance required, while an uphill runway will reduce it.

The important point is that crews calculate performance on the basis that the figures they’re given are accurate and that the runway surface will perform as expected for the reported conditions. If the calculations show the aircraft can stop with the required margins, pilots quite reasonably expect to be able to stop. The problem comes when the actual braking achieved on the day is significantly worse than assumed, because at that point the aircraft may no longer perform as the calculations predicted.

So whilst the fact that the touchdown zone is on a downslope is interesting and certainly affects performance calculations, I don’t think the accident report supports the idea that this was the key issue behind the overrun.

Leeds Bradford isn’t unusual in having a sloping runway. Bristol and Exeter both have significant runway gradients and crews account for those every day through the aircraft performance calculations. The existence of a slope isn’t the issue in itself; the key is that it’s properly reflected in the performance data used by the crew.

 

[Finger66]

Think it's just @LBA4EVER using something to continue with his ongoing narrative re LBA infrastructure criticisms. If LBA was that unsafe we wouldn't have the airlines operating that we have today, nor would there be the investment there is, nor would AENA have wanted a stake in a successful airport.

 

[White Heather]

The runway profile is certainly relevant, but having looked at the AAIB report, the investigation wasn’t really focused on runway slope being overlooked.

The findings were much more about wet runway braking performance, the condition of Runway 14’s surface, and whether the stopping performance expected from the TriStar matched what was actually achieved on the day.

Runway gradients aren’t something that pilots or performance engineers ignore. The uphill/downhill slope of a runway is factored into aircraft performance calculations and is considered on every flight. It was in 1985 and it still is today. A downhill runway will generally increase the landing distance required, while an uphill runway will reduce it.

The important point is that crews calculate performance on the basis that the figures they’re given are accurate and that the runway surface will perform as expected for the reported conditions. If the calculations show the aircraft can stop with the required margins, pilots quite reasonably expect to be able to stop. The problem comes when the actual braking achieved on the day is significantly worse than assumed, because at that point the aircraft may no longer perform as the calculations predicted.

So whilst the fact that the touchdown zone is on a downslope is interesting and certainly affects performance calculations, I don’t think the accident report supports the idea that this was the key issue behind the overrun.

Leeds Bradford isn’t unusual in having a sloping runway. Bristol and Exeter both have significant runway gradients and crews account for those every day through the aircraft performance calculations. The existence of a slope isn’t the issue in itself; the key is that it’s properly reflected in the performance data used by the crew.

Birmingham's runway is stepped and higher ar one end snd also the same direction as LBA with the same crosswinds. Obviously, it's a good bit longer now, but that wasn't the case before it was extended. When you look around, LBA might not be ideal, but there are loads of runways that are far more challenging for a variety of reasons with far more go arounds and diverts, yet we happily fly into them in holiday without a care in the world then get the dithers when flying into LBA.

 

[dmrodgers]

Birmingham's runway is stepped and higher ar one end snd also the same direction as LBA with the same crosswinds. Obviously, it's a good bit longer now, but that wasn't the case before it was extended. When you look around, LBA might not be ideal, but there are loads of runways that are far more challenging for a variety of reasons with far more go arounds and diverts, yet we happily fly into them in holiday without a care in the world then get the dithers when flying into LBA.

Whilst you and I know the runway is adequate for most operations out of LBS, with the exception of windy days when we do get some diversions the general perception of the public is the length of the runway. The first things friends say to me is runway length genuinely believing it is too short for safely operating aircraft and will travel to MAN, EMA and the like. No amount of explanation by me telling them the likes of Jet2, Ryanair, easyJet etc wouldn't operate from LBA if this was the case. Somehow the airport has to get the message over to these passengers that the runway is safe for commercial operations. Over 4m passengers quite happily use the airport every year and are happy to return year after year.

 

[LBA4EVER]

Apart from the largest uk airports most other major airports in the uk have runways within the 1700-2500m length, LBA sits right in the middle of that figure, its just a shame due to its position, geography and usual weather conditions it aint just that bit longer.
Quite happy to fly in and out on a 737 or similar, just as long as its the window seat

 

[Aviador]

As Leeds Bradford Airport (LBA) has rightly pointed out, the aerospace industry has developed solutions to handle the airfield's restrictive performance capabilities. Modifying ground infrastructure, such as adjusting the physical ILS localiser antenna to increase available runway distances, combined with the transition towards satellite-driven Performance-Based Navigation (PBN) will optimise arrivals. When paired with new-generation aircraft like the Boeing 737 MAX and Airbus A320neo, these changes will deliver a step-change in operational efficiency. However, because infrastructure adjustments and fleet modernisations require massive capital and regulatory approvals, these advancements won't happen overnight, they'll take time.

 

[Finger66]

Quite happy to fly in and out on a 737 or similar, just as long as its the window seat

Think you might be arguing against your own point there @LBA4EVER

 

[Seasider]

Interesting video with quite abit of info regarding the 1985 british airtours incident. Interesting how the highest part of the runway at LBA is at the start of R14 which I think is pretty surprising and how a TDZ on a downslope can affect runway performance figures, a point I've raised.

Why are we going back over 40 years to show something that has been well documented during that time. If it has to be posted it should be in the Nostalgia thread. I would imagine that a lot of members on here were not born at that time.

 

[Aviador]

Yes its like regurgitating the Manchester airport disaster over on the Manchester forum but we don't do it. There's nothing new, it's all old hat and the sort of thing NewAirport4Yorkshire would spew up over on another forum. It happend, and like all air disasters or accidents, lessons were learnt.

 

[Finger66]

@LBA4EVER having met you more than once it is obvious you are a very nice guy and I will be totally honest in saying I have no problems with you. But equally obvious is the majority of members would like your narrative to change. By all means bring something to the party, just don't regurgitate history that is in this modern era somewhat irrelevant. We should all be wholeheartedly be behind LBA, whatever frustrations we all have

 

[LBAYORKIE]

Why are we going back over 40 years to show something that has been well documented during that time. If it has to be posted it should be in the Nostalgia thread. I would imagine that a lot of members on here were not born at that time.

I thought this was a good video. A lot of effort went into it. The AI images were good in the main.

 

[LBA4EVER]

I thought this was a good video. A lot of effort went into it. The AI images were good in the main.

Thankyou, thats why i posted it onto here as i myself was very surprised by the sheer amount of detail and AI inc info i was unaware of and some of it quite surprising. But glad you enjoyed it lbayorkie

 

[Severn]

Thankyou, thats why i posted it onto here as i myself was very surprised by the sheer amount of detail and AI inc info i was unaware of and some of it quite surprising. But glad you enjoyed it lbayorkie

The graphics are impressive, but my comments were about the accuracy of some of the conclusions rather than the quality of the video itself.

Having read the AAIB report, I don’t think it supports the videos suggestion that runway slope was the key issue. The reports focus was much more on wet runway braking performance and whether the actual stopping capability matched what the crew had every reason to expect from the performance data available to them from both the airport and aircraft manufacturer.

Runway gradients were already factored into performance calculations in 1985, just as they are today, and crews rely on those calculations being representative of the conditions they encounter.

It’s also worth remembering that the accident occurred over 40 years ago before many of the advances in aircraft performance, braking systems, runway monitoring and operational procedures that exist today. Let’s not draw direct comparisons with present-day operations.

 

[LBAYORKIE]

The graphics are impressive, but my comments were about the accuracy of some of the conclusions rather than the quality of the video itself.

Having read the AAIB report, I don’t think it supports the videos suggestion that runway slope was the key issue. The reports focus was much more on wet runway braking performance and whether the actual stopping capability matched what the crew had every reason to expect from the performance data available to them from both the airport and aircraft manufacturer.

Runway gradients were already factored into performance calculations in 1985, just as they are today, and crews rely on those calculations being representative of the conditions they encounter.

It’s also worth remembering that the accident occurred over 40 years ago before many of the advances in aircraft performance, braking systems, runway monitoring and operational procedures that exist today. Let’s not draw direct comparisons with present-day operations.

I agree it has to be taken in the context of 40 years ago.

I've read the AAIB report several times over the years- mainly because it didn't really answer all my questions. I don't think this video conflicts with it and does give some interesting perspectives, which are logical to me.

Im not sure why someone would spend so much time and effort on this video for what is really not a particularly high profile accident, surprisingly in the 6 days since it was released its got 4700 'likes'.

I think its been well researched and presented and is well balanced and well worth viewing.

ps. Worth looking at the 'comments' below the video too.