Beijing Capital Airlines

[Brum X]

I understand where you are coming from with regards Hangzhou and Shanghai. BHX should be selling Hangzhou as a city in its own right which it is.
I didnt expect that BHX would suddenly get a chinese airline offering a x 4 weekly scheduled flight to PEK, so so soon after the MAN launch, this has to be the best BHX could of hoped for and is totally in line with what they have been saying over the last couple of years which has been all about building up the route so that hopefully one day we get the all year round x 4/5 weekly flights which im sure is the airports long term aim.

I also suppose when you have a sneaky look on the MAN thread this news i suppose could become less exciting when there are multiple new chinese routes expected at MAN over the next year but im looking at this as a very positive development for BHX. These flights will bring tourists or whoever wants to use them directly into BHX for a few months. Im sure that if all the legal stuff was sorted quicker we would of had a full summer season of flights from April until the end of October, maybe.

And who knows if the MAN flights are so successful with Hainan Airlines they could also venture down the M6 and open up BHX too in a year or two, thats how im looking at it anyway. Beijing Capital just being a little tease until we get the big one.

 

[Ray Finkle]

@Brum X

I'd written a lengthy reply, which was rather negative but after reading what you have written I've deleted it.

For a scheduled service 1x weekly is not ideal but it's another small step forwards and that's all that we can ask for.

Mr K said 'if the pax are there then there will be more', I'll cling on to that and enjoy the summer

 

[User001]

It will be interesting to see what your thoughts are Ray, as your normally quite positive and this is positive news.

I do have to be honest and say that 2 things have stood out for me this year.

Firstly, I did hope for more after 2 other seasons.

I did expect at least 2 weekly PEK and 1 weekly to another destination. I know we have known about PEK/HGH since the route application came out, but, one could say the programme to PEK has been reduced in favour of another route given it was 2 weekly last summer.

Secondly, I'm surprise at just how 'underwhelmed' the response has been to these route announcements. Firstly, the enthusiast groups don't seem to be celebrating as much as previous summers (Ray even admitting that he has negative opinions). Secondly, there doesn't seem to be the 'fanfare' that accompanied the other programmes, such as the business adverts, travel agency quotes and the likes. United Travel were all over this on the first programme, but not a peep from them this time. Even Twitter was quiet. Last years flights, I must have counted over 100 tweets when the news broke. I think I could count on 2 hands the number this time. Where's that party spirit gone?

However, as said, this is positive news. Regardless of anything, it's still 2 Chinese destinations that will sit proudly on the departures board this summer, and it may, just may cause other Chinese carriers to sit up and take note. Look how quickly Air China reacted to the Hainan news. You never know, Tianjin Airways may start Chonging-Birmingham next summer, as it's another potential tourism link.

Little acorns and all that.

 

[Brum X]

@Brum X

I'd written a lengthy reply, which was rather negative but after reading what you have written I've deleted it.

For a scheduled service 1x weekly is not ideal but it's another small step forwards and that's all that we can ask for.

Mr K said 'if the pax are there then there will be more', I'll cling on to that and enjoy the summer

Lets look at it this way, we could of been told last week that after all the "rumours" there would indeed be no flights between BHX and China (Charter or scheduled)

For me the alternative isnt even worth thinking about and how dissapointed would we all be now if that would of been the case.

And also how many other airports in the UK the same size of BHX (EDI/GLA) would be excited at this news had the route gone there way. This puts it all into context for me anyway.

 

[nwoody2001]

Dear lord, some brummies just cant put the razorblades down!!!

Forget Manchester, forget other airports, forget the competition for a while. Birmingham Airport, our airport has got direct seasonal scheduled flights to 2 Chinese destinations. This summer, Beijing will be served in the same way that Orlando, Toronto and other holiday destinations, and whilst we earn for more capacity, for some reason people see 1x weekly links to china as less valuable to the exactly same type of flight that goes in the other direction!?

Who would have thought that our airport, that 2 years ago was handling just over 8m passengers would have direct scheduled flights to china??? no one!!!!

I just think that people here need some context and stop comparing ourselves with other airports. Manchesters achievement is a great on, but we cant let their success overshadow our own. We are half their size!!!

 

[Ray Finkle]

Okay, you asked for it.

To me this whole 'scheduled' business seems a little like desperation. After all, ' Birmingham has scored scheduled flights to China' implies a service to cater for all, when really once weekly is pretty useless for business. This whole Shanghai/Hangzhou also, for me, adds to the sense of desperation. There's nothing wrong with Hangzhou at all but it's as if they think Shanghai just sounds better.

The other thing is has anybody tried to book one of these? I have and I can't. I've tried multiple flight comparison sites and the likes of Amadeus. Even the BCA site only lists domestic destinations. They may be in GDS but the only difference appears to be that travel agents can book flight only rather than hotel packages.

So we've got flights to Shanghai (JLR connection?) that can only be booked through a travel agent, can only travel on a Tuesday and will probably take just as long as a connection at DXB, DOH, IST, FRA...etc, where execs can be in the lounge working rather than on a train for 90 mins.

Hangzhou will be great to see but I'm honestly wondering if we would have been better off with a 2/3 weekly Beijing, with the option for it to be booked online? It would be more business friendly and may have given a more realistic idea as to how a 'proper' scheduled service may work.

I'm not underwhelmed with the flights at all, it's an increase, a new destination and if they had been charters I'd still have been happy. It's more the way that the airport seem to be trying to 'sex' it up, when really it just seems to be a slightly longer, re-badged version of last year.

For me, I wanted the headline 'direct scheduled flights' to mean a proper, year round service, with a frequency to give the local business community freedom to use it. If we're not at that point yet then have another year of charters, there's nothing wrong with that, then announce a scheduled service when it is to be a 'full' one.

The lack of fanfare may well be that, although the airport can finally use the word 'scheduled', it's probably not the scheduled service that many had hoped for. Imagine the excitement a local businessperson feels when they see an email 'Birmingham announces direct scheduled flights to Shanghai' only to find out that it's just 14 weeks of a once weekly service to a city over 100 miles away.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck.....etc

I'm now off to hide in a deep bunker now until all of the incoming has stopped

 

[nwoody2001]

Give me strength...

Aside from the Shanghai/Hangzhou debate which is one of marketing, I'm just flabbergasted that just because a flight doesn't meet the need of business men, people somehow feel it is not worthy of the title 'scheduled' or that it is somehow not worthy! But if our seasonal Scheduled flights to Beijing and Hangzhou are not worthy, then that also means that our flights to Canada, the Florida, Mexico, Gambia, Dubai World Centre are also not worthy!!!

For god sake, what is wrong with an airline and a route marketed at tourists not good enough for BHX, nearly any airport in Europe, many much bigger than BHX would bite their right arm of for what we have got, yet for some reason, we don't allow ourselves to be proud of what we have achieved???

I'm all for pragmatism, reflection and review, but these were announced less than a week ago, and already people have branded them 'underwhelming'!!!

Shall we all get in touch with BHX and RD team and tell them not to bother with any long-haul services unless they are at least daily, BHX is too good for anything less?!

 

[IanFarquharson]

Neil / Ray - I know you are both very passionate about BHX as I am - so calm down !
As I posted a few days ago BHX's Chinese plan is moving exactly the way they planned it i.e. a gradual increase in flight, a gradual increase in destinations and a range of airlines getting invloved.
I take Ray's point once a week to two destinations wouldn't work for business and I take Neil's point the BHX has done a fantastic in securing and expanding these services which are now scheduled services.
The next step is to expand further to maybe a further destination, more frequency and for a whole season and in time year round.
It will happen !

 

[Ray Finkle]

Slightly over dramatic but there you go.

All I can do is apologise for daring to have a different opinion but it's mine and I stand by it.

 

[nwoody2001]

Please don't apologise for having an opinion, is there something wrong with an impassioned debate...? Why air statements and opinions if people can not respond so long as they treat people with respect? ...we don't all have to agree lol!

 

[Ashley]

One thing for sure there is a solid strategy in place now to grow the airport to its full potential.Its taken a long time in coming but finally we are beginning to see results.

 

[Ray Finkle]

Totally and I respect others opinions even if I don't agree. With it being difficult to express context in the written word sometimes my posts appear negative, it's only because I want BHX to keep achieving more and more, which it is doing.

Just to clarify my thoughts:

- Capital Airlines - I was dubious at first but they show potential.

- New destination - Great to see, well done BHX.

- Scheduled/charter - With the season and frequency we have charter wouldn't have bothered me.

- Overall - Slightly longer season which is a positive, would have preferred PEK at 2/3x weekly.

- Headlines - We are telling the world that 'Birmingham has finally secured scheduled flights to China' yet when people scratch beneath the surface they then realise that it's not really much more than a re-branded version of last year, slightly underwhelming. That is backed up by the fact that it died death only a few hours after the announcement.

 

[Ray Finkle]

There has been one other thing going around my cynical mind, it's a bit of a conspiracy theory.

Not a lot is known about Capital Airlines. When we had China Southern and Hainan there were lots of quotes from their representatives but we've seen/heard nothing this time, despite them giving BHX what they have longed craved.

Capital are a 'sister company' of Hainan and under the HNA Group umbrella.

Do we know if they operate as a totally independent airline or do Hainan execs pull the strings? I don't think anybody knows but if it's the latter then here's my conspiracy theory.

Hainan have invested alot of time and money into MAN and will do what it takes to make the route work. If at any time they see that our flights are affecting that, they could take action. With them getting the Capital Airlines flights up to a scheduled basis they now hold the traffic rights between BHX and PEK, even at 1x weekly. With the Chinese rule of 'one route, one airline' nobody else can now apply. If Hainan feel the need to protect their other UK interests then they could now limit us to a short, once weekly, summer season only. For as long as they want.

Of course, if Capital Airlines operate totally independently then it doesn't apply but I don't think we know. Hainan may well have played this beautifully.

Hangzhou could end up being a master stroke as it still leaves Shanghai open should anybody else show an interest in the future.

 

[Brum X]

Totally and I respect others opinions even if I don't agree. With it being difficult to express context in the written word sometimes my posts appear negative, it's only because I want BHX to keep achieving more and more, which it is doing.

Just to clarify my thoughts:

- Capital Airlines - I was dubious at first but they show potential.

- New destination - Great to see, well done BHX.

- Scheduled/charter - With the season and frequency we have charter wouldn't have bothered me.

- Overall - Slightly longer season which is a positive, would have preferred PEK at 2/3x weekly.

- Headlines - We are telling the world that 'Birmingham has finally secured scheduled flights to China' yet when people scratch beneath the surface they then realise that it's not really much more than a re-branded version of last year, slightly underwhelming. That is backed up by the fact that it died death only a few hours after the announcement.

I think it died a death because I had a rant with another forumer from another airport up north. That's my fault. Wont do it again.

Back on topic

You may have a point with regards the BHX-PEK route, however china doesn't end at Beijing so there are plenty more China destinations for BHX to get its teeth into over the coming years. However I do understand all your concerns about Beijing capital airlines. I emailed BHX yesterday to ask how do people book on these new scheduled flights ?? Im awaiting for a reply.

 

[Jon Dempsey]

I'm in total agreement with Ian. Rome wasn't built in a day as they say.

I would much rather a slow build-up of reliable services built on the back of solid demand then the old situation of the 2 season wonder.

BCA are also part of the same group as Hainan who are rumoured to be sniffing around Monarch along with EasyJet.

 

[nwoody2001]

Ray,

I appreciate your perspective, and equally, please don't interpret my passionate response in a personal capacity. The points you raise are valid, and I too have queried them, but tried to take a pragmatic approach to them instead of allowing the conspiracy theory thoughts to spread.

- No acknowledgement by HNA group. I personally think that PK/BHX were prompted into announcing the route earlier than HNA had intended, primarily as a consequence of the MAN-PEK road trip. Do we think it was a coincidence that our news was announced the same day that MAN was in town promoting their route? I don't think so and as such, PK/BHX has bought the announcement early.

- They are not currently on sale yet. same as above. That said, it often does take time for such details to be loaded into such systems. I too will be happy when they are available!

- The airline. The reality is that as with the other seasons (as we should have expected) these flights are targeting at an inbound tourist market, and as such whilst Beijing Capital are new to Long-haul and not well known to us, they are a big established name in china. This is my mind is no different to TOM/TCX flying to the USA. And yes its new to long haul, but whos to say that's an issue. China is a growing market, new airlines are to be expected.

- Slot/Blocking to protect MAN. I really don't think there is anything in this ray. First of all, in the event the MAN route need protecting (which early signs suggest it doesn't) then how does limiting direct flights from BHX help exactly. HNA target market in the UK have been used to flying to china via the lines of ONE World / MEB3 for years, and as such, is direct flights are working, they market will do what they have always been doing and HNA don't benefit at all. Also in the event MAN is not successful, there is no point BHX trying its luck, If MAN cant succeed, id struggle to see how BHX could!

 

[User001]

The main ways to look at this news are:

-did BCA still launch BHX flights despite their parent group launching MAN flights? Yes

-Are there now 2 Chinese destinations on the departure boards regardless of length of season? Yes

-Does BHX now have one of the fastest growing long haul airlines groups in China on board (HNA group), and that airline more likely to expand more than any other? Yes.

-now the flights are set up, could this mean it's easier to start up a longer season next year? Yes.

End of the day, this airline doesn't have the huge pulling power that Hainan or Air China possibly could, and yes, there are questions over the scheduled/charter nature, but, the fact is, BHX has something a lot of other airports across the world don't have, and that is a direct flight to China.

This needs to be celebrated, it's a huge coup regardless of the technicalities.

 

[Butty]

There has been one other thing going around my cynical mind, it's a bit of a conspiracy theory.

Not a lot is known about Capital Airlines. When we had China Southern and Hainan there were lots of quotes from their representatives but we've seen/heard nothing this time, despite them giving BHX what they have longed craved.

Capital are a 'sister company' of Hainan and under the HNA Group umbrella.

Do we know if they operate as a totally independent airline or do Hainan execs pull the strings? I don't think anybody knows but if it's the latter then here's my conspiracy theory.

Hainan have invested alot of time and money into MAN and will do what it takes to make the route work. If at any time they see that our flights are affecting that, they could take action. With them getting the Capital Airlines flights up to a scheduled basis they now hold the traffic rights between BHX and PEK, even at 1x weekly. With the Chinese rule of 'one route, one airline' nobody else can now apply. If Hainan feel the need to protect their other UK interests then they could now limit us to a short, once weekly, summer season only. For as long as they want.

Of course, if Capital Airlines operate totally independently then it doesn't apply but I don't think we know. Hainan may well have played this beautifully.

Hangzhou could end up being a master stroke as it still leaves Shanghai open should anybody else show an interest in the future.

I agree to some extent, Ray. On the face of it the announcement is a little underwhelming, but...
...China is in a strange position. World super power but with a low propensity for international travel. That is changing fast and when it does it will unleash a 6th of the world's population. India will follow. So at present having two destinations in China served (albeit with low frequency, by a charter airline, with limited access to the purchasing of seats and only for summer 2016) is very positive step. When the propensity to fly overseas (Europe) increases in china, then BHX will be in a very good position.

When the first Emirates landed 15 years ago, who predicted a x3 daily service and the world's largest airliner each day. They will come.

 

[Ray Finkle]

I think it died a death because I had a rant with another forumer from another airport up north. That's my fault. Wont do it again.

It wasn't your fault mate

I was thinking more of the wider picture. Considering this has been a major long term goal it was all very subdued compared to the likes of Air India, Qatar, A380 etc.

Also in the event MAN is not successful, there is no point BHX trying its luck, If MAN cant succeed, id struggle to see how BHX could!

It's not MAN failing that worries me. If it does fail (which it won't) then Regional UK - China is over.

Lets say 2-3 years from now MAN-PEK is booming. X thousand number of people from our region are using the flights so BHX approach Hainan and say we need something now. Hainan decide that rather than spend money on a new station they'll just expand an existing one as pax are happily travelling to it ( as they now do for the likes of Virgin). BHX then decide that they now have the data to approach others but can't as a weekly summer only flight is using up the route.

I'm just thinking long term and it's just one of countless scenarios, as always only time will tell what's planned. I'm just still struggling to see why it is now scheduled when very little else seems to have changed.

I guess I'm thinking the worst and hoping that they haven't rushed in to this only to regret it later. There's been some good points made so I'll leave it there and wait to see what happens.

I just hope that it's a sunny morning for the arrival

 

[nwoody2001]

2 things I would say in response....

1 - China is a nation of over 1 billion people and growing. Of the 100 largest cities in the world, an amazing 26 of them are located in China! Even in the worst case scenario that HNA are "route blocking" as it were, there would be plenty of other options in terms of locations and airlines BHX could approach.

2 - The scenario you paint could happen on any route, but at the end of the day, money is what makes the world go round. If there is a market out of BHX (and I'm sure there is) airlines well explore and exploit that market.

Aviation is a very temperamental and changes all the time. the MEB3 have changed aviation beyond what anyone imagined. We now have Turkish growing, and some say that with the lifting of sanctions in Iran, they too have the potential to be a world player is they so wish! Will the world go back to a Hub-and-spoke approach or with new airlines/plane continue 'bust the hubs' ...who knows! that is far into the future, as are your scenarios Ray!

As many other have said, I am jus happy that we have what many other airports don't. I have faith that BHX have this is hand! They wouldn't have gone to all the effort to get the airline in without a strategy of the next step I assume!